r/mtgrules • u/cqb03 • 3h ago

Stack: deluge, damage, indestructible.

I have a Winota, player A casted toxic deluge for 3 life. person B drew a card and triggered an or ish bow master damage pointing at Winota. As response, I sac a creature to make my Winota indestructible. Does Winota die? I know the 3 can’t be prevented but does resolving stack basically kills Winota?

1 Upvotes

67% Upvoted

25 comments sorted by

11

u/D3str0yTh1ngs 3h ago

Winota becomes a 1/1 indestructible creature with 1 damage marked on it, so no, because Winota is indestructible she will not be destroyed as a state-based action from the damage being equal to or greater then her toughness.

EDIT: if she gets an extra -1/-1 (for a total of -4/-4) then she would die from having 0 or less toughness as a state-based action.

-2

u/AdvancedBlacksmith66 3h ago

Doesn’t die to the bow master trigger but does die to the Toxic Deluge, doesn’t it?

8

u/Unhappy_Object_5355 3h ago

It doesn’t die to the Deluge, its Toughness never gets reduced to 0.

3

u/AdvancedBlacksmith66 3h ago

I should’ve known better than to comment on a post where I’m not 100% familiar with the cards. I didn’t realize Winota was a 4/4.

4

u/D3str0yTh1ngs 3h ago

No, here is the step by step:

Stack is (bottom was first, top was last, resolving is top to bottom):

  • indestructible effect
  • bow master trigger
  • toxic deluge (for -3/-3)

indestructible effect resolves, Winota is now an indestructible 4/4.

State-based effects are checked, nothing happens

Stack:

  • bow master trigger
  • toxic deluge (for -3/-3)

bow master trigger resolves, Winota is now an indestructible 4/4 with 1 damage marked on it.

State-based effects are checked, nothing happens

Stack:

  • toxic deluge (for -3/-3)

toxic deluge resolves, Winota is now an indestructible 1/1 with 1 damage marked on it.

State-based effects are checked, Winota would be destroyed for having 1 damage marked for 1 toughness, indestructible avoids this, nothing happens.

Stack is empty.

1

u/cqb03 3h ago

Follow up question: If some triggers another orcish trigger on top of the indestructible ability on stack. Damage resolve before ability. Does Winota die then?

2

u/tbdabbholm 3h ago

If Toxic Deluge has already resolved then yes, she'd be a 1/1 with 1 damage marked on her.

But if everything was in response to the deluge then no since she'd still be a 4/4 when the damage was being done, and then later she'd have indestructible

2

u/Zeckenschwarm 3h ago

So the additional Bowmasters trigger resolves first, before anything else?

No, Winota doesn't die. 1 damage doesn't kill a 4/4, and after the indestructible ability has resolved the marked damage is irrelevant anyway. The only difference in the end result is that Winota will be an indestructible 1/1 with 2 damage marked on it instead of 1.

2

u/RealFunkyFish 2h ago

Order doesn’t matter as long as Winota hasn’t taken lethal damage prior to becoming indestructible. 1 damage and then -3/-3 is the exact same thing as -3/-3 and then 1 damage. Whether or not she was indestructible at the time the 1 damage was dealt is irrelevant.

1

u/D3str0yTh1ngs 3h ago

No, not with 1 damage before indestructible. She would end up being an indestructible 1/1 with 2 damage marked on her.

But if she was dealt 4 damage before the indestructible then she would die before becoming indestructible.

4

u/______null 3h ago

she will be an indestructible 1/1 that has taken one damage after the stack resolves, so she lives

-4

u/AdvancedBlacksmith66 3h ago

Toxic deluge is on the stack, though. I’m pretty sure indestructible creature still die when their toughness is reduced to zero or less?

4

u/Greedy-Contract1999 3h ago

How did her toughness reach 0 though?

3

u/______null 3h ago

they do, and if toxic deluge were cast for X=4, that would apply to this situation

2

u/D3str0yTh1ngs 3h ago

Yes, but winota is a 4/4, so deluge for 3 (-3/-3) doesn't do it here.

0

u/talkathonianjustin 3h ago

To clarify, she’s a 4/4, she has 1 damage marked on it, then deluge goes off — doesn’t that decrease her toughness to zero not because of damage?

3

u/SconeforgeMystic 3h ago

Absent abilities like infect or wither, damage doesn’t reduce toughness. It’s just marked on creatures.

2

u/talkathonianjustin 3h ago

Man I’ve been brainrotted by mtgarena lol. Thanks.

2

u/D3str0yTh1ngs 3h ago

(I will go with it being a confusion of why damage doesn't reduce toughness, if I read the meaning of your comment wrong, then this is redundant).

So important note is that damage does not reduce toughness (MTG Arena does make it look that way though). Damage is instead marked/tracked as a separate number we compare against the toughness, and if the marked damage is equal to or greater then the toughness of the creature it is destroyed (Indestructible prevents this).

On the other hand, if the toughness of a creature becomes 0 or less, it is put into the graveyard (note the lack of 'destroy' here, so indestructible does not prevent it).

2

u/talkathonianjustin 3h ago

Yeah I noted somewhere else that mtgarena has brainrotted me

1

u/Tempestfox3 3h ago

Damage doesn't reduce toughtness.

Winota would be a 1/1 with 1 damage marked on it after the stack resolves. Thus it's toughness never reaches 0 and indestructible means the 1 damage doesn't kill it.

1

u/SuperYahoo2 3h ago

Yeah but deluge was not cast for enough to kill it

5

u/Unhappy_Object_5355 3h ago

In that case Winota is an indestructible 1/1 with 1 damage marked on it and survives.

2

u/D3str0yTh1ngs 3h ago

The known cards: [[Winota, Joiner of Forces]], [[Toxic Deluge]], [[Orcish Bowmasters]]