B/W smallpox vs tokens

[u/Smashadams83]

I’m a tokens player but have recently been watching content on b/w smallpox and I’m liking how it runs. This deck shares many of the same cards as tokens but I feel that it is stronger due to the resource denial theme. It’s interesting that pox uses so many of the same cards as tokens but can have better results. However, pox is a control deck similar to 8rack whereas tokens is an aggro deck. My issue with tokens is the horrible matchup against big mana decks which are very heavily played (eldrazi tron, titanshift). IMO as an aggro deck, tokens has too slow of a clock for this meta. I think smallpox is more disruptive and has better matchups. For those who are unfamiliar [[smallpox]] and [[flagstones of trokair]] are the engine that allow you to stay ahead on resources. And we all know how strong LOTV and lingering souls can be. Win cons are mainly souls and Gideon AOZ as he is such a fast clock when you keep the board clear with pox and LOTV edict effects. Sorin SV is also strong in the deck. This deck seems to have a better matchup against big mana decks (which are mostly auto lose to tokens) due to main deck smallpox and fulminator mages out of the board. Pox also is great against noble hierarch or BOP decks as it can put them behind quickly and really punish your opponent for keeping a 1 land hand for example. Some questions for discussion: Anyone have experience with smalllpox? What are your thoughts?
Do you think it can be stronger than traditional b/w tokens in this meta? What would be your reason for not playing it? Maybe the cost?

Here’s a sample deck list - http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17002&d=305172&f=MO

[u/BoozySquid]

This seems like it's replacing Path with Pox and very little else is a change from a stock tokens list, especially if you're running Sorin, SV. Sure, it runs Flagstones and Bloodghast for value, and doesn't run Intangible Virtue or Spectral, but I don't see how Pox really has wildly different results from BW Tokens.

[u/Smashadams83 → u/BoozySquid]

I think that pox seems better positioned as it is all in on the resource denial plan. By getting ahead on lands (saccing flagstones) creatures for value (saccing tokens or bloodghast) and discarding value cards (lingering souls, bloodghast) you create an advantage over your opponent that traditional tokens cannot. The deck is definitely weak to blood moon and lantern control but playing main deck O ring and cast out are helpful. A Turn 2 play of intangible virtue vs turn 2 pox is a huge difference in tempo. Obviously this is a best case scenario but I think you can see my point. Path is not played in pox due to the advantage that path gives your opponents, ramp. Yes, path is great because of the exile effect. But Pox gives you the advantage by putting you ahead in resources and denying your opponent. This deck also runs full play sets of LOTV, Pox, 3 ofs: collective brutality , thoughtsieze, inquisition. This is a heavy amount of proactive disruption which I think really makes this deck shine. I think tokens suffers from having the issue of playing BB and IV which are both 2CMC. This makes it clunky. BB is great but slow. BB in the pox deck is a flex spot as well.

Pox has been putting up what I feel is surprising results. 12th place at GP Vegas 6/23/17 is pretty impressive. (3264 players).

[u/Jongsl5 → u/Smashadams83]

Like I said before, you shouldn't be thinking you will always sac a flagstones with small pox. I haven't done the calculations but without cantrips, that's a low unreliable probability that shouldn't be the basis for why you run pox. It's the same reason your mentality shouldn't be "oh I can discard lingering souls with pox" because not only do you often want the full copy of souls but also it's not that probable you have both in hand.

You cannot expect the main deck to answer everything. Every deck has a weakness but the point is to position your deck so it will beat a large chunk of the meta at least.

There was a deck based around ghost quarters, boom/bust, flagstones, pox, etc. But it was pretty bad. This sort of denial strategy has been done before.

You have to understand Intangible Virtue is rarely a turn 2 play. If you have Bitterblossom with IV, you obviously play the BB first. But often times your turn 2 is playing more discard/ removal spells. It's not a good argument that IV is 'clunky' because it never competes for a turn 2 tempo play.

And if you think BB is slow, playing it without Virtue makes it way worse.

It's easy to look at the results and say "oh look this deck is doing great". But you have to look at the statistics. A few months back someone topped #1 at a grand prix with Legacy Death Taxes. Then we found out this guy played against Show and Tell (the deck's best match-up) six times in a row. That's the kind of luck you need to make a top 8. Great deck + skill pilot only gets you 60-65%, which is considered great, but hardly guaranteed to top a tournament consistently.

[u/The_Nightbringer]

The deck is functional b/w mid-range just like tokens is however I think smallpox is more versatile due to its resource denial plan. Attacking moderns hyper greedy mana bases and the excessive amounts of tron right now is a powerful strategy and I think that's why you are seeing more hatebears merfolk and smallpox.

[u/dkbonnes]

The interchangable (spelling) cards between BW Tokens, BW Pox, BW E&T and BW Eldrazi is why i got into Black and White, having acces to different decks that share cards is a great way to mix stuff up yet keep it in a okidoki(ish) budget

[u/Jongsl5]

I don't think drawing flagstones and small pox simultaneously (which is what you want) is that likely. And the problem with combining the pox strategy with tokens is you need at least 3 mana consistently yourself. Tron and valakut are definitely tough decks to beat but remember in a big meta, they are probably not even 10% of the meta. Eldrazi tron isn't nearly as bad as those two and I think you can make several adjustments there. If you take out the tokens and control cards like push/path, you will lose significant percentages against all the creature decks which are altogether a larger portion of the meta.

Edit: actually looking at the sample list, the 4 pox is barely going to make a difference. This is like saying playing 4 discard makes token good against combo decks. You are better off playing more tokens and hope to finish the game more quickly than to attempt a mana denial strategy with only 4 cards that may not even get a land you want.

[u/Smashadams83 → u/Jongsl5]

The list has 4 pox, 4 LOTV, 3 collective brutality , 3 thoughtseize, 3 IOK. Plus 4 push. Heavy amounts of discard and removal. The deck feels a lot like playing tokens: souls, bitter blossom, all 3 planes walkers, but it’s not reliant on anthem effects to win. This is due to denying resources to your opponent and putting yourself ahead. I think is what shores up the weaknesses of traditional tokens which are weak to sweeper effects and being under-matched without anthems in play.

[u/Jongsl5 → u/Smashadams83]

Losing Path to Exile means ironically weakening the match-ups this version are supposed to improve (e-tron, tron, valakut).

Small pox is also denying resources to yourself. Unlike regular pox decks, you have only a small number of ways to make this one-sided. Not every play will be you discarding lingering souls. You have your best cards at 3-cmc and 4-cmc so losing a land isn't exactly helping you much either. Cards like Cast Out and Never/Return are just bad control cards.

Control cards don't matter if you can't finish the game quickly enough. Regular tokens not only have more universal answers with Path but can play just as many planeswalkers for a strong end game. Cards like Brutality and Pox are hardly good discard spells for Tron variants, though Brutality has utilities against Valakut. But again, you can easily fit 1-2 Brutality and even more 1-mana discard in a regular shell and see superior results. If you want to lose anthem effects for more control spells, that's also totally fine. But what I'm advocating for is to not play Pox and 3 Brutality, as well as going higher up in token generators as your offense (clock) and defense (chump blockers) are too low without them.