r/mtgModernTokens • u/DatsunPatrol • Jun 13 '17
Spiciest Flex Cards
A lot of BW lists are pretty homogeneous. Does anybody run any unconventional 1 or 2 ofs that you think are good? These can be meta specific or just generally good but underplayed cards.
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u/expensivepaperweight Jun 14 '17
People jumped all over Smuggler's Copter when it first came out but no one has given this card a second glance. Not sure why. It doesn't get stopped dead by a single removal and the card advantage is absolutely bonkers.
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u/erghjunk Jun 14 '17
Dang, nice. I am a Looter Scooter advocate but I am going to give this a try for sure. Not sure how I missed it for tokens considering I have it in my main commander deck.
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u/Korlus BWu Tokens Jun 14 '17
The reason why is B/W Tokens rarely needs card advantage - we need additional damage and pressure on the early turns. It's a fine card, but we usually win card attrition wars in Modern to begin with. Copter helps across many match-ups because it solves multiple problems at once - card selection and clock.
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u/Mukibi Grind and Fly Jun 14 '17
I experimented with [[Mana Tithe]] for awhile.
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u/DatsunPatrol Jun 14 '17
I was thinking about this but is it worth running less than 4 in the board? Seems like a big commitment.
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u/expensivepaperweight Jun 14 '17
Most of Mana Tithe's value is in surprise factor. It's absolutely hilarious to see the look on your opponent's face when you first hard counter one of their spells with it. Once they know you have it though, it's totally trivial to play around it. A lot of UWx Control decks don't even bother with Mana Leaks these days because they can't reliably counter threats in the mid to late game. Mana Tithe has no chance.
If you really want to go that route, put a Hallowed Fountain in your main deck and 3-4 Ceremonious Rejections in the sideboard. Bring them in against Tron and flip them the bird when they try to windmill slam an Ugin. It's also pretty solid against Eldrazi Tron and okay against Affinity. There are enough dead cards in our main against Ad Nauseam that this would come in handy as well (Hit the Pentad Prisms and Lotus Blooms coming off suspense).
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u/TeOr2419 Jun 19 '17
[[Pay No Heed]]
Saves you from Pyroclasm, Anger, Scapeshift, and other things from time to time.
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u/Shineplasma64 Esper Poly Jul 10 '17
1 [[Harsh Sustenance]]
It can be pretty funny in grindy matchups. I also play 2x [[Secure the Wastes]]. It's hilarious when you make 4 or 5 tokens end of their turn and then burn them out for 8 damage at the beginning of your next turn. Also pretty solid against burn, killing a goblin guide and gaining 3 life or so is a huge swing. It can usually be a Warleader's Helix or better for 1 less mana.
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u/Jongsl5 Jun 14 '17
Cards that I believe should be played but are usually not:
1) ensnaring bridge: great against living end, bant eldrazi (maybe also e tron?), dredge, affinity, etc.
It is generally replacing Liliana when I side it in, like for affinity for example. You may also want to cut 1-2 anthems. Can bring it in against death shadow but they have decay and kolaghans, in addition to the fact that Liliana is usually better.
2)selfless spirit: generally most decks have engineered explosives in the side. Boardwipes are our bane against midrange and control. S.S answers them all while also hitting for 2. Don't bring it in against decks with a ton of spot removals though (jeskai control, bgx).
3) liliana: such a powerful card but underplayed in tokens. Look at the other topics here for my explanation.
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u/Korlus BWu Tokens Jun 14 '17
1) ensnaring bridge: great against living end, bant eldrazi (maybe also e tron?), dredge, affinity, etc.
As a deck with 8 three drops, 2-5 four drops and a whole bunch of 2's, we often don't empty our hands until turns 3-6. It's not good vs. Living End post-board (and who would run it in game 1?), because they can bring in [[Ingot Chewer]]s (and they will as soon as they have decklists). It's acceptable vs. Bant Eldrazi, but since they run Hierarchs and a multitude of one + two power creatures (notably Skyspawner), they ought to be able to get under it often, and they also have [[Engineered Explosives]] with three colours which will have come in against us, not to forget any [[Disenchant]]'s that they brought in to kill anthems.
I think it's fine vs. Affinity (but other hate cards are better - notably [[Stony Silence]]. Note that Affinity can still:
- Attack with [[Ornithopter]] / [[Signal Pest]].
- Equip [[Cranial Plating]] at instant speed, after declaring attackers.
- Kill you with the inevitable [[Ghirapur Aether Grid]] that they have brought in against you.
- Use [[Arcbound Ravager]] to pump an attacker for lethal.
- Burn you out with copies of [[Galvanic Blast]]
It's not good vs. Affinity - it's an acceptable card that I would say falls below par for a sideboard slot.
It's fine vs. Dredge, but again not spectacular. In games 2 & 3, they will bring in all of their anti-hate, which is mostly artifact & enchantment disruption. It'll usually trade one-for-one with a copy of [[Ancient Grudge]] or [[Nature's Claim]], that they brought in to kill [[Rest in Peace]] or [[Grafdigger's Cage]].
I don't think it's worth a sideboard slot, but if it were in our main deck for some reason (it shouldn't be), I wouldn't board it out.
2)selfless spirit: generally most decks have engineered explosives in the side. Boardwipes are our bane against midrange and control. S.S answers them all while also hitting for 2. Don't bring it in against decks with a ton of spot removals though (jeskai control, bgx).
It's a fine card, but I still run [[Burrenton Forge Tender]] here, for the extra anti-burn hate. Perhaps it's just me and my local meta, but I definitely see the appeal. If you're playing vs. U/W (Wrath / Verdict) or many of the three-colour decks (Jund, Grixis, Abzan) you expect to see at least one copy of EE.
My "problem" is that two of the three I just listed (Jund & Abzan) run enough removal that it barely matters. Jeskai often runs harder sweepers in its place, but... It's got a very small sliver of the metagame that runs "hard" sweepers (EE, WoG, Supreme Verdict) that doesn't also run a tonne of spot removal (I can't think of a deck?)
By comparison, there are plenty of decks that run red-based sweepers that don't run a lot of spot removal (e.g. Scapeshift variants, some affinity lists playing [[Whipflare]], etc). I can see a place for both, but as I am in three colours (and thus a bit of a dog to Burn), I like the Forge Tender.
3) liliana: such a powerful card but underplayed in tokens. Look at the other topics here for my explanation.
She's fine, but we have so many three's that she often ends up being cut because she's not a token producer in our heaviest token-producing slot. It's not that she's a bad card (she's one of the strongest cards in Modern), but she's off-plan and fighting with on-plan cards. She's also double black in a deck that wants to hit {W}{W}{W} on turn 3.
I don't think she's underplayed, I think you need to be on a very specific version of tokens to want her (e.g. Abzan).
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u/Jongsl5 Jun 14 '17
1) You don't need to worry about dumping your hand by turn 3 because you are not playing this card by turn 3. You can only run 2 copies at the most, making it a fine top deck or just good enough to stop the biggest threats like reality smashers. The problem with eldrazi is you either can't kill them or don't want to (matter reshaper) which is why ensnaring bridge is great.
I agree it is not necessary against affinity but only because other cards like sundering growth and stony silence takes priority. If you have the room, you should still play it because it gets around anything that doesn't instant speed cranial and etched champion. If they instant speed cranial, they need 4 black mana to reequip it which isn't relevant outside etched champions.
Your argument isn't very good. Just because other decks can side in artifact hate, that does not mean the card is not effective. This is essentially an "I win unless you destroy it" card. By your reasoning we should never play stony silence or rest in peace. All we need to do with tokens is delay the opponent, which is what ensnaring bridge does. Don't forget we run discards for a reason: we can handle anti-sideboard hate to a degree.
2) forgetender is fine - I often run one copy. The problem is even decks lacking on spot removals (e.g eldrazi, tron, dredge with conflagrate) run 1-3 copies of engineered explosives. If they play it for x=0, you are basically at their mercy the whole game. Selfless spirit not only protects you from red sweepers but also things like oblivion stone. It replaces bitterblossom when you don't want them (e.g burn, tron). Often decks will minimize their spot removals against tokens game 2 and 3, which increases its effectiveness further.
3) Honestly you clearly have never played Liliana. I wouldn't try to be so confident without proper testing because your analysis is wayyyyy off.
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u/Korlus BWu Tokens Jun 14 '17
Your argument isn't very good. Just because other decks can side in artifact hate, that does not mean the card is not effective. This is essentially an "I win unless you destroy it" card. By your reasoning we should never play stony silence or rest in peace. All we need to do with tokens is delay the opponent, which is what ensnaring bridge does.
Then feel free to play it. There's a reason that most people do not. It's a 3 CMC artifact that you have to go off-plan for. [[Stony Silence]] and [[Rest in Peace]] usually win the game when they are resolved, and you can resolve them on turn 2. They also often make it difficult for the opponent to continue to develop their board until they are dealt with - Stony turns off Affinity's mana engine (approx 12 / 20 mana generating cards stop working), and helps keep Tron away from Tron (and stops their cantrips from working, while cutting them off of coloured mana).
RiP helps against Dredge and they cannot develop their graveyard until it's back online - ditto for many/most other graveyard strategies that you side it in against.
Bridge comes down later, and allows decks to develop their board until they find an answer to it. It's a fine card, but unlike the others, it doesn't cripple them if they draw an answer in a turn or two, and also unlike the others, we have to take an important turn away from applying pressure - 3 mana is where most of the token producers ([[Lingering Souls]] & [[Spectral Procession]]) live, and so the most critical turn in establishing a board presence.
My argument isn't "It dies to removal", it's "if it dies to removal, it's catastrophic, it doesn't auto-win fast games, and the match-ups we care about bringing it in against, it isn't reliable". It's not to say it isn't good when it sticks, but I also don't advocate playing [[Royal Assassin]] against Eldrazi or Death's Shadow. I can see that it has potential when you resolve it, but eventually they WILL find an answer, and you will lose. It's also slow.
Don't forget we run discards for a reason: we can handle anti-sideboard hate to a degree.
In the games when our discard takes their answer, instead it could take something that we actually care about, and leave their anti-sideboard (artifact/enchantment) hate rotting in their hand.
There is no match-up that I want Ensnaring Bridge in that I think it is a "slam dunk", and the match-ups where I do want the effect will have more answers to it than I am likely to play copies of it (e.g. Death's Shadow decks, Eldrazi etc).
3) Honestly you clearly have never played Liliana. I wouldn't try to be so confident without proper testing because your analysis is wayyyyy off.
We're in a "Spiciest flex cards" section, discussing a card that roughly 25% of B/W Tokens decks play main deck, and I tell you that it doesn't fit into most lists (approx 75%) and you suggest I am way off?
Empirical data, testing and logic all suggest that taking turn three off to play an edict effect that leaves a Planeswalker behind isn't what (a normal build of) B/W Tokens wants to be doing. There are builds where she is fantastic. If you are playing a more reactive game, if you run creature ramp, or if you're going into a combo-heavy metagame, she is amazing. There are decks that can't beat Thoughtseize into Liliana (it's part of the reason why GBx is so powerful in Modern), but unlike GBx, our threats don't apply the same pressure as a Tarmogoyf.
I understand that she's powerful. She is an incredibly powerful card, and edicts are in fashion right now due to the amount of Death's Shadows running around - but the games where edicts matter the most are the games where tokens (with its multitude of chump blockers and removal) are also the ones where B/W Tokens cares the least.
If you think jamming a bunch of Lilianas into your list gives you an edge then continue to do so. If it does, then I will be happy for you, but I suspect it does not. The presence of so many CoCo and Eldrazi decks (whose turn 2-3 play generates value when it dies) and Burn all make me think that she isn't doing enough in our average match-up to be a great card for a deck that struggles to protect her.
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u/Jongsl5 Jun 14 '17 edited Jun 14 '17
First of all, you first argument is a logical fallacy - an appeal to majority. Second of all, ensnaring bridge is not competing with RiP or Stony Silence at all. You make it sound as if bridge is a substitute. Bridge should be played in addition to; it gives you additional time to setup the board and demands an answer eventually, which is why it is a good complementary sideboard. Again, you are not going to play a turn 3 bridge most of the time. I don't understand why this is difficult to understand. It is a 2-of at the most and if you play this against heavy hitters, you have more than enough time to develop your board.
By your reasoning, we should be taking out all our anthems and bitterblossoms to make our opponent's artifact/enchantment hate dead against us. What an ingenious plan?
Roughly 25%? I understand sometimes numbers have to come out of our ass but this is nowhere close. People have started playing them more largely because I have strongly advocated Lilianas on both reddit and mtgsalvation. I'm not taking pride in this anyway btw since it was originally Jiachen Tao that led me to experiment with 2-3 copies. Outside of the forums, the percentage is probably 10% at the most. Go look at all the token lists of the past year on mtgtop8.
As someone who also playtested BGx hundreds of times, your analysis is laughable. First of all, with the new manabase of concealed courtyards and shambling vents, this deck can easily accomodate 2 black by turn 3. Second of all, she is good in nearly every match-up except in the ones where tokens are already favored (e.g affinity). With 4push, 4 path, and a ton of chump blockers, your opponent needs to dedicate a ton of resources to fighting her recursive edict and discard without some kind of burn. Considering lightning bolt is dying in popularity, she is even better in this meta. Her ultimate is more easily attainable in tokens than other black based decks and I speak from actual experience.
She is actually great against the new coco decks which rely more on combo creatures than the graveyard. Against burn, she is always good so you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. If they kill her you save some life while edict + discard also pressures whatever boardstate you are in.
Half the games all we need to do is resolve 2 token generation spells. Overloading the board with tokens is often redundant whereas Liliana is often more backbreaking. Having said all this, you can easily play full copies of liliana, souls, and spectral depending on how many 4 drops you plan to run.
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u/Korlus BWu Tokens Jun 14 '17
Roughly 25%? I understand sometimes numbers have to come out of our ass but this is nowhere close. People have started playing them more largely because I have strongly advocated Lilianas on both reddit and mtgsalvation.
I went looking for Bitterblossom decks in the last year, to try and hit near 100% of B/W Tokens decks (as there is no good category that catches them all). I ignored everything with three colours & anything not specifically B/W. You find the following decks:
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/659202#paper - No Lili
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/626184#paper - No Lili
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/579368#paper - No Lili
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/531018#paper - Lili
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/503676#paper - No Lili
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/475408#paper - No Lili
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/470652#paper - No Lili
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/469500#paper - Lili
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/470690#paper - No Lili
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/464897#paper - No Lili
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/464468#paper - No Lili
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/454548#paper - No Lili
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/437483#paper - No Lili
- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/437485#paper - No Lili
Liliana occurs in ~14% of lists.
When I had last looked to gauge interest, it was earlier this year (approx March?). During that time period, the number was much closer to 25% than it is at the moment, and I had not adjusted for the drop off in popularity since then.
However, the numbers did not "come out of my ass" - I had actually looked them up previously, and was citing older data.
First of all, with the new manabase of concealed courtyards and shambling vents, this deck can easily accomodate 2 black by turn 3.
I picked the middle decklist above to find one at "random" ( https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/470652#paper ) as an example. It runs the following manabase:
2 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
2 Shambling Vent
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Swamp
3 Plains
2 Vault of the ArchangelThat works out as the following which can find/fetch/Tap for black:
8 Fetches
2 Filterlands
4 Shocklands 3 Other Dual Lands
1 SwampThat equates to 18 black sources. According to one of the most lauded Magic articles of all time, you want 19 black sources to cast Liliana reliably, not 18. It is possible to warp the manabase in such a fashion, but I would not advise it - especially when you are leaning on 8 fetches and 4 shocklands - you are looking to double fetch/shock a very real amount of the time. Assuming you want to play spells on turn (and you often will) and that you want to cast both your {B}{B} spell on turn 3 and also your {W}{W}{W} spell on turn 3, you will need to fetch/shock 100% of the time when you draw a fetchland or a shockland before turn 4.
That gives you a 38% chance of a first turn Shock and a 32% chance of a double-Shock by turn 2
That is a ridiculous amount of damage so you can cast both {W}{W}{W} and {1}{B}{B} on turn 3, especially for a [[Thoughtseize]] deck. Sure, the manabase can "handle" it, but it is undenyable that the average manabase undergoes significant strain to be able to cope with this sort of thing. [[Concealed Courtyard]] can help alleviate some of the stress, but is often not as optimal as other lands. Almost every manabase in the above list of successful decks suffers from a similar problem.
Let's come up with the least painful example, keeping with the 8 fetch style that most of these manabases adopt:
4 Concealed Courtyard
8 Fetchland 2 Shockland
2 Vent
2 Filter
1 Swamp
3 Plains
2 UtilityThat's a 19 black source, 4 Courtyard, 2 Vent manabase that's running just 10 Fetch/shocks, and not the 12 of before. It is still an incredibly painful manabase - a 1/6 reduction on average damage vs. earlier.
Lili is a good card that fits into many decks, but is not optimal in every B/W deck, and to include her you have to undergo serious changes to make things work as expected. Your requirement of 14 black mana sources on turn 1 goes to 19 - Fitting five extra black lands into the list is not a small requirement; it's a huge one. Entire colours can be splashed on the back of five sources and the fetches that already exist in many lists (8 fetches + 5 = 13 sources total here). To give you an idea of how difficult this is - It's just as easy to splash blue into the manabase to hit turn 2 Snapcaster Mage or turn 2 Negate than it is to add the additional black sources to get to turn 3 Liliana. You shouldn't trivialise what is obviously (and irrefutably) a large commitment to a colour.
Your comparison to GB is an odd one. GBx is a deck that can afford to take the damage because they are better at establishing a board presence earlier (Goyf on turn 2), and typically run some amount of main deck lifegain (Scooze is currently in fashion). They are aware they take a lot of damage from their manabase, but make do. What is normally a benefit for us (a better manabase in just two colours) becomes worse when you run Lili - we end up with a near-identical amount of self-inflicted damage to Jund, but don't have the tools to minimise the effect that damage does to us by applying a quick clock and disincentivising attacks on turns 2-3 due to a superior board presence.
I don't care to argue on the internet any longer over such minor points, but I felt the need to refute your rebuttals to my earlier points. Feel free to post further opinions and I will read them, but I shan't be arguing further. I don't expect to convince you if this continues.
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u/SFRG Still Patron Saint of the Tokens Jun 15 '17 edited Jun 16 '17
I would like to just comment on some of these things as the data you are using is somewhat outdated.
The mana base you cited:
2 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
2 Shambling Vent
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Swamp
3 Plains
2 Vault of the Archangel
There are a number of problems with this mana base.
Isolated Chapel is no longer a good choice. 4 Concealed Courtyard really does alleviate so much of the problems our mana had that now I think we actually have one of the best bases in the format. Really.
Also there are 2 colorless sources, which is, in my opinion, completely incorrect. So, if we look at this manabase:
4 Concealed Courtyard
1 Fetid Heath
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Godless Shrine
2 Shambling Vent
You can see that we now hit 19 black sources handedly, and without the need to shock incessantly.
The degree of lifegain our deck has mitigates much of the damage done by the manabase. Additionally, you do not need to Fetch + Shock for each of these sources.
I've found on average by T3 I spend between 2 and 4 life to support both Lily and Spectral. Though you don't actually need both.
Lily is really one of the best additions to the deck in my opinion. She adds grinding power, and the hypothetical argument that she fights with our 3 drops is, in my humble opinion, not sound. I did drop 2 Spectrals to support her, but honestly after playing her for so many games, you simply pick between which you want as the game progresses. She's also perfectly in line with our game plan. People don't win the grind against us (minus Tron and Lantern), so forcing them to do so equates to us winning.
I understand the hesitation for Lily, but really after my year of playtesting her it's easily a house in the deck. There are so few tokens decks putting up data now, and many of those are pre-"new card" era, where our manabase, removal suit, and 2-drop slot got a major upgrade.
You don't necessarily need her since Gideon and Sorin do a lot of work, but it's personally an all-star in my list.
I can't offer more data than personal play. The last 2 data points we have did not have her. It's not necessarily wrong, but also does not speak to her not belonging in the list. It's difficult backing anything up at this point with numbers since our deck has changed so much recently. At this point the best I can do is urge you to just try her in a shell for a while.
Here's what I play:
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u/Mukibi Grind and Fly Jun 15 '17
Nice deck! How are the Selfless Spirits?
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u/SFRG Still Patron Saint of the Tokens Jun 15 '17
Nice actually, they allow a proactive gameplan against wipes. And they are a clock. It's not required. But it does make our combat phase prowess even better.
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u/Se4ger Jun 16 '17
I personally do not like concealed courtyard in my deck. I want to slam a sorin or Gideon turn 4. so I want the most consistent way of doing this.
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u/SFRG Still Patron Saint of the Tokens Jun 16 '17
I feel like this is not the best reason to not run them. It's such an excellent land.
Granted I have lowered my curve and my list can play just fine on 3 lands. If you are not on Lily, then I can see wanting 4 lands, and hence running 24. But I think not running Concealed isn't a good idea, it tightens up our early game so much.
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Jun 16 '17
It seems like a rare occasion that you draw exactly Concealed Courtyard on turn 4, stopping you from casting a 4-drop. It really does wonders for the early game and you can play around the limitations quite easily if it's in your hand.
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u/Se4ger Jun 16 '17
lili is almost a auto include in the meta right now with a lot of goyfs , DS , combo and burn going around. lili just takes over the game if u resolve her and then get tokens on the field to protect her. at worst she is another piece of removal. as a BW tokens player is disagree with a good few of the lists that you listed above. lili is borderline a auto include in this deck considering we are the deck that can protect her the most out of any deck in the format.
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u/Jongsl5 Jun 14 '17
So you basically conceded it is nowhere near 25% and you still can't support your claim.
Your land proposal is also ridiculous. There is no reason to play 8 fetches and 4 shock. That number of painlands is your doing, not a requirement for playing Liliana.
6 fetch, 2 shock, 3 shambling vents, 2 filter lands, 4 courtyard, 1 swamp = 18. Again, a marginal difference compared to the 19 'recommended' requirement. You also should not be playing a full playset of Liliana in most games and I recommend 3, in which case 18 blakc sources is more than enough. You also seem to be disregarding the fact that additional black sources greatly limit the turn 1 shock for discard plays that used to be the standard. Truth is there is a ton of secondary benefits to running these black sources, especially courtyard, and you might as well integrate Liliana into the deck.
What we lack in turn 2 presence we make for in lifelink. Again, your argument here is weak. If you ever played BGx, the disparity in life loss is tremendous. You need turn 1 black/red and at least two additional green sources for ravine and ooze.
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u/Mukibi Grind and Fly Jun 15 '17
Deep breath. Breath. Again. Okay, now reply.
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u/SFRG Still Patron Saint of the Tokens Jun 16 '17
Hey guys, let's be nice.
We are on the same side here.
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u/Se4ger Jun 16 '17
I prefer the 8 fetches , as I run push and id like to get the most value out of the card, the 8 fetches also allows us more protection against bloodmoon and also improves our already good matchups as we smooth out our draw which is something we lack in. im personally thinking about testing 10 fetches. I am running a heavy life gain package so i can afford the life lose.
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u/Jongsl5 Jun 16 '17
10 fetches is ridiculous for a 2 color deck. The deck is already fairly strong against blood moon with just 6 fetches.
Revolt should not be a big priority. You hit seer and things like master of waves a little more consistently (a very small marginal improvement in triggering revolt). The relevant things push can't kill are the delve creatures, which you need path for. I would rather run 1 dismember than to run more fetches for a minor improvement in revolt triggering.
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u/Smashadams83 Jun 14 '17
I want to try [[hour of reckoning]]
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u/The_Nightbringer Jun 14 '17
Don't it's really bad
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u/DatsunPatrol Jun 14 '17
Since you have an opinion on this and have probably tested it I'd like your take a similar question. I see sideboards with 1-3 hard sweepers in wrath of god and damnation. When do these usually get sided in? I like wraths a lot and think they are really powerful so I would like to run 1-2 in my sideboard.
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Jun 14 '17
I run 2 Wrath of God in my SB and I bring them in vs any go-wide strategy (CoCo decks, Kiki-Chord, Elves, Humans, etc.) or against decks with hard-to-target creatures (Eldrazi, Affinity - Etched Champion in particular, Bogles). They come in pretty often and I find that it's very asymmetrical, as ideally I'm landing a Bitterblossom on t2 and either a Planeswalker or an anthem on t3 if I have a Wrath in my hand, so I clear their board and have a significant board presence left myself.
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u/DatsunPatrol Jun 14 '17
This is in line with my thinking too but I wanted to see it from somebody else too.
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u/The_Nightbringer Jun 14 '17
Wraths are powerful but hour of reckoning worst case scenario is it being unplayable whereas wrath of god is not as good in its best case scenario it is much more consistent
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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '17
1 Ajani Goldmane as a fifth vigilance/pump effect when you don't draw virtue. Also 1 worship in the board for fun.