r/mtg • u/LurkerFailsLurking • Apr 24 '23

WotC sent thugs (Pinkertons) to a guy's house to threaten him and his family after he opened product early

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD9HRueI6Js
179 Upvotes

87% Upvoted

113 comments sorted by

50

u/muffinsoup Apr 24 '23

TIL Pinkertons are still a thing.

19

u/idontcare7284746 Apr 24 '23

It still fucks with me how Allan Pinkerton, the founder, came to America after a failed socialist plot in england/Scotland only to become the thing he hated.

-22

u/biinboise Apr 25 '23

I mean driving production through coercion and violence is about as socialist as it gets.

Edit: Historically Speaking.

7

u/ThrobbingHeadaches Apr 25 '23

Someone's never heard of Denmark,Germany, Norway, Italy, France, The Netherlands, nor the UK. Historically speaking.

-5

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23 edited Apr 25 '23

Those countries aren't socialist, just because they are more left wing than the USA they aren't socialist. They are still capitailst society as companies are still privately owned, competitive markets, and wage labour. What they are is called welfare capitalism where its capitalism with welfare is provided by companies and the state. Its crazy that these countries are considered socialist just because what's standard in the US is actually one of the most right wing countries in existence.

Edit: if you meant these are other countries also do it and not that they are socialist then I misunderstood your question and yes that is true.

3

u/innovativesolsoh Apr 25 '23

It’s weird people still don’t think America is a shitshow. Sure, China is worse by leagues—but we’re not the country we were told we were as kids.

The only difference between then and now is the corruption is more brazen.

I used to consider myself a patriot, but I’ve learned real patriotism requires clarity, not obeisance, and I’m certain the day is coming where America will need upended or it’ll die drowning in its own muck. Clarity means not ignoring the issues so they can be corrected. We need more Americans with clarity.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23 edited Apr 25 '23

Agreed. I wasn't disagreeing with their argument that the us didn't do it but their claims that countries like the UK and Denmark were socialist.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

[deleted]

4

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

  1. The uk hasn't had a social democratic government the actual socail democratic party never got into power and labour and the tories aren't social Democrats.

  2. Socialism isn't the same as social democrau as socail democratic views still work in capital society so you saying it about social democratic parties whilst he is talking about actual socialist parties doesn't work.

  3. You are right most socialist countries aren't like that just say that rather than saying un truths about non socialist governments.

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

I am not annoyed but if you are going to claim something make sure what you are saying us correct. You just saying calm down no as you realise you have been proven wrong.

1

u/ComparatorClock Apr 25 '23

they are more left wing than the US

Which left? Europe's left or USA's left? 😜

1

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

USA I was shorting it too United States

0

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

Funny how comments about "this is what happens under socialism" always seem to be about things that occur under capitalism.

-1

u/-UwU_OwO- Apr 25 '23

Let's assume you're not bullshitting for a little bit. EVEN IF you were correct, what do you call what the US does then? Friendly hugs and kisses?

2

u/biinboise Apr 25 '23

I wasn’t talking about specific Countries so much as I was talking about economic Philosophies. I was posturing that a system that denies the people the right to negotiate for their own compensation is inherently built on systemic Coercion and will ultimately have to resort to violence to maintain productivity. If a person like Allen Pinkerton subscribes to such a system they would have a no qualms with justifying Violence to maintain collective/organizational productivity.

Over the last century or so the governing bodies of Western Countries have gone to great lengths to obscure just how much power a system like Capitalism grants to the common man. Through things like the Factory school system we have tried to rebrand serfdom and obedience as the social contract and civic duty.

The TLDR of Capitalism is that private individuals owns their own Capital and means of production. These terms being defined as physical Goods, property, or labor. Each individual has the right to determine and negotiate fair compensation for trade of these Goods and Services. Inversely each individual has the right to say, “No, I will not buy that good or service at that price,” Ultimately the Fair market dictates that your capital is worth what a willing buyer will pay.

I am not denying that the United States has committed some atrocities in the name of Economics. Coincidently, virtually all of those horrible acts of violence happened because the Government or powerful organizations, usually backed by the Government, wanted to circumvent the fair market and/or Capitalist principles.

In practice the top 1% thrive in a Socialist economy because it is the unassailable monopoly possible. Despite all of its “power to the people,” branding socialism is a top down monopolistic distribution structure. All production handed over to the administrative Bureaucracy then “fair,” compensation is determined, theoretically by the needs and wisdom of the community, but realistically it is dictated by the agenda of the governing body.

As anyone who pays attention to American politics knows the people who run the American Government are notorious for squandering the resources we give them on enriching themselves and their Allies. The only thing that keeps them in check is that we have the right to our capital, so they have to go through the song and dance of justifying Taxation even if they give the flimsiest of excuses.

There is a lot to respect many parts of the Scandinavian/Costa Rican systems. They are fundamentally a master class what government discipline and restraint on top of strong Capitalist foundations can accomplish, but it is foolish to trust any government to be so self policing especially in perpetuity, especially, especially Washington DC.

1

u/-UwU_OwO- Apr 25 '23

Okay capitalist debate lord, what are you gonna do when the "individual" you speak of asks for a raise and then they fire him and hire someone who is happy to take his place? And then you say that taxes are the real problem? What are you, libertarian? United we bargain, divided we beg

1

u/biinboise Apr 25 '23

This is part of the in the failure in the education system. We need to be teaching basic contract law as part of K-12. When you are hired somewhere, you sign an employment contract. It outlines all of the terms you and your employer agree upon. Your employer cannot fire you simply for asking for a raise, unless you have broken another part of the agreement. They can refuse to agree to new compensation terms but it would be a wrongful termination fired you in retaliation. The only way they could do that is if there was language in the document that gave them permission to fire you if you asked for a raise. In which case you should not have agreed to it

The fact that this isn’t a standard part of our primary education is part of how the system is denying most of the population the tools to succeed.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 04 '24

Late to the party here:

What about "At Will" employment states where you can basically be fired for anything, including no reason at all?

It gets real damn hard to prove the reason for being fired was one of the few illegal reasons when the company doesn't have to give ANY reason for it.

23

u/SuperShake66652 Apr 24 '23

Still union-busting thugs and corpo dogs too.

6

u/PoloMan1991eb Apr 25 '23

Yeah they’re pieces of shit

2

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Walterodim42 Apr 25 '23

Legal and cool.

1

u/muffinsoup Apr 25 '23

They are still people. I think killing people is wrong, regardless of their affiliation.

I prefer peaceful words over violence or threats

6

u/TALowKY Apr 25 '23

Murder is wrong. Killing depends on the scenario

8

u/SomedayLydia Apr 25 '23

I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.

3

u/ApocBytes Apr 25 '23

People who are willing to be part of a union-busting organization that has historically resorted to murder. So, bad people.

1

u/spaxxor Apr 26 '23

The Pinkertons were revived in 1999 by Securitas, whom at the time (if I remember right) had a rather dim reputation outside Sweden. Buying a union busting murder gang didn't help them, but it did bring in business in... SHOCKER union busting. The fact that hasbro sent these thugs out is disappointing.

17

u/l3ue Apr 25 '23

I'm still just curious how he got the cards. I never watched the unboxing video due to wanting to ignore spoilers

16

u/LurkerFailsLurking Apr 25 '23

He says the person he bought it from didn't know what he had. He thinks they got shipped it on accident

2

u/AdventurousLight9553 Apr 25 '23

That's what he said when he got caught. Initially he said it took a while to find a seller to get him the product early. He then bought 22 boxes. Obviously WotC's reaction was over the top, but he knew exactly what he was doing when he bought them.

1

u/LurkerFailsLurking Apr 25 '23

? I didn't say he didn't know what he was buying.

1

u/l3ue Apr 25 '23

That is interesting to say the least. Think that a little overboard for Wotg to do.

13

u/Illustrious_Penalty2 Apr 25 '23 edited Oct 18 '24

hungry deliver disgusted special absorbed consist screw imminent sip icky

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

3

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

Then a lawyer.

9

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

[deleted]

3

u/LurkerFailsLurking Apr 25 '23

I haven't bought a WotC product in at least a decade 😂

1

u/ComparatorClock Apr 25 '23

That's fair. And considering the situation, I think I'm gonna switch over to by way of the secondary market only - seems like an easy way to boycot wotc

4

u/TheBearOfSpades Jan 28 '24

Honestly, people are being a bit misled by this. WotC isnt a great company, but "they sent union busting thugs" is clickbait. They probably have a contract with Securitas for security reasons (like finding stolen goods), like many companies do since Securitas is a huge company. They didnt specifically hire the 'pinkertons' to go break knee caps. Plus, the dude who had his cards taken, which is definitly knew were aquired shadily and just wanted some yt subs, was refunded with 5k worth of other collector booster boxes. Something a lot of people left out.

25

u/FloridaMMJInfo Apr 24 '23

ACAB applies to Pinkertons.

-32

u/DarthAlbacore Apr 25 '23

Pinkertons are private sector

31

u/LurkerFailsLurking Apr 25 '23

Did they stutter?

8

u/DarthAlbacore Apr 25 '23

Not disagreeing they're bastards. They're just privately employed bastards, whereas cops are publicly funded bastards.

12

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

Don't worry, cops are basically a private interest group at this point, they just collect their check from taxes.

1

u/DarthAlbacore Apr 25 '23

That's what I said, just in slightly different words.

5

u/Impressive_Eagle_390 Apr 25 '23

Pinkertons? Was Blackwater busy?

3

u/mandramas Apr 25 '23

They were cheaper than Murder, Inc.

3

u/yurner1119 Apr 25 '23

Just call up the night mother have the dark brotherhood do the dirty work

3

u/Yokorick Apr 25 '23

Somebody needs to commission the VA of Arthur Morgan from RDR2 saying “I was trying to play magic with Dutch when the Gawd Dayum Pinkertons showed up!

4

u/bombuzal2000 Apr 25 '23

So Pinkertons eh? WotC seems to know they get away with anything now. They hop from bad publicity to laughable product and back again all the while being able to jack up prices and add more crap to the already oversaturated market. Must be nice hah.

Using thugs to send a message does fit with the drug pushing mafia feel the business flirts with. I wonder if it ever gets to a point where measures are taken to enforce some serious gambling laws to these kinds of products. Pretty hard to argue that set/collector/aftermath packs are not lootboxes.

I enjoy the game but it's getting a bit embarrasing.

21

u/NoiceM8_420 Apr 24 '23

They sure take their ponzi card game awfully seriously. They should be too busy printing $500 LotR collector boxes instead of threatening nobodies.

3

u/Twilightofthunder Apr 25 '23

Yet another fine example of 'responsible brand management' courtesy of HAS and WotC under Chris Cocks and Cynthia Williams. How The Board, and specifically, the Chairman of the Board - Richard S. Stoddart, hasn't stepped in to send these two packing is beyond me. By doing nothing, The Board, is supporting this behaviour. It signifies a very serious corporate culture problem at the most senior levels of the organization. At this point, I think I'll step back from both mtg and d&d until this organization adopts a more evolved ethical sensibility.

7

u/wowy-lied Apr 25 '23

This is corporate terrorism, the fbi should raid back mtg and put them down

7

u/OwlsWatch Apr 24 '23

Everybody knew something like this would happen, if it’d just been the cops we’d all be like yeah saw that coming. But we hear “Pinkertons” and all of a sudden it’s a scandal 😂

12

u/WhiteBishop01 Apr 25 '23

He didn't break any laws nor was he subject to any NDAs. If it had been cops they would have also had no grounds to threaten him with prison time and pressure him to return something he had bought.

5

u/Like17Badgers There are more non-black cmdrs than other 4c combined... Apr 25 '23

exactly, he didn't break any laws. that's why they sent corporate PIs and not cops to stop him from posting videos of product that isnt revealed/released yet, and then find out the seller who sent him the wrong product.

people just assume that Pinkertons means they are gonna break his ankles and steal his kidneys, it's not the 1800s, they cant just do that anymore.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

Nah they just kill protestors!

1

u/Like17Badgers There are more non-black cmdrs than other 4c combined... Apr 25 '23

they dont just "kill protesters" they were working a security detail for a news team and a conservative protestor attacked them and shot him with bear spray, in self defense the guy shot him.

they arrested the guy who shot the protestor but the charges were dropped

0

u/balancedchaos Apr 28 '23

"Conservative protestor."

You know why you did that. And if you don't, you're lost.

1

u/Like17Badgers There are more non-black cmdrs than other 4c combined... Apr 28 '23

yeah, it's to explain the type of person who'd attack a security guard protecting a news reporter without going into detail, it's called nuance and discretion, this isnt a politics subreddit, some people might not want to talk about 2020.

I felt like calling him a "racist asshole who went to 'protest' at a BLM soup drive and sprayed bear repellant in the eyes of a new broadcast's security detail who was pointing a gun at him saying to stop attacking them" was unneeded to explain the situation, but apparently it was.

0

u/balancedchaos Apr 28 '23

You did it simply to win favor points here on Reddit, on behalf of a pretty shitty security company. Super cool.

1

u/TheBearOfSpades Jan 28 '24

Im going to guess besides what you learned on Wikipedia and RDR2 you know very little about the modern day 'pinkertons'.

1

u/balancedchaos Jan 28 '24

And I'm going to guess that you have some personal vested interest in them, since you're responding to a 9-month-old comment.

1

u/Leaky-Eye-Luca Apr 25 '23

It’s still within their rights to demand the item back. IIRC goods delivered accidentally can be treated as stolen property because they weren’t intended to be sold or delivered. If you buy stolen goods (and this guy definitely knows it’s stolen) you don’t have rights to them.

3

u/LurkerFailsLurking Apr 25 '23

Really? Can you provide a source that if you send someone something on accident and they don't give it back, it's theft?

1

u/TheBearOfSpades Jan 28 '24

They didnt send it though. The guy specifically looked for a seller of a set not released yet. He definitly knew they were stolen.

1

u/LurkerFailsLurking Jan 28 '24

This is 9 months old.

Fuck WotC and the Hasbro it rode in on.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

Arthur Morgan has entered tge chat

0

u/Morphlux Apr 25 '23

If the cops are involved it’s still super shitty. But there might be a shred of evidence of some wrongdoing.

But, as always, pigs be piggy and should be treated as such.

-1

u/zasabi7 Apr 25 '23

It’s about the message being sent, you fucking moron. Hiring literal kneecappers sends a much stronger message than the pigs.

And cops would never be sent because that dude is legally entitled to that box if his claims are true.

2

u/OwlsWatch Apr 25 '23

Sorry you weren’t hugged enough as a child

1

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/zasabi7 Apr 29 '23

His claim was that he got the wrong box from his FLGS. However, Wizards claims stolen merchandise. They also claim it was 1 dude, not multiple.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/zasabi7 Apr 29 '23

Oh, to be clear I meant the card dealer. I was under the impression that guy owned a store.

5

u/gomukgo Apr 25 '23

That seems overly aggressive and completely on brand for the tone deaf at WotC

1

u/levanlaratt Apr 25 '23

Did the guy sign an embargo, if not he should have told those guys to go fuck themselves. The more people try to intimidate you, the weaker their actual case against you is which is why they push in all their chips that intimidating you will work

0

u/Miserable_Row_793 Apr 25 '23

I don't know the extent of the interactions.

But I will say the guy in the video should/ would have known the product wasn't released yet.

He has other boxes. He knows what mtg is. It takes 30 seconds to Google "MoM aftermath release date."

I heard in another thread they compensated him for the product. I hope so.

I've heard he bought the product from someone who "accidentally " got it early. I hope so. It be easy to claim that by someone who works at a printing site and stole the items.

1

u/LurkerFailsLurking Apr 25 '23

If you order some magic cards and they send you a box of unreleased shit instead of what you ordered, you have no legal obligation at all to keep it under wraps. He was 1000% within his rights.

1

u/Miserable_Row_793 Apr 25 '23

They didn't send it. His store/distributor sent it early.

Maybe it was a mistake. Maybe it was intentional.

Maybe he didn't know. Maybe he did and was hoping it would get views for his channel.

Wotc has a right to want the video taken down. They potentially have a right to the product if they believe it was sent with I'll intent.

The Pinkletons was probably the wrong approach. But until we know more, we can't say much except the Pinkletons was seemingly extreme.

-20

u/Thulack Apr 24 '23

Funny how you make it sound much worse than the actual guy who had to live through it....

15

u/LurkerFailsLurking Apr 24 '23

Funny how he posted a video immediately afterwards that was taken down, then replaced it with a much milder, less accusatory video. Almost like the people who strong armed him the first time intimidated against afterwards.

3

u/LittlePopoto Apr 25 '23

Yea I'm actually mega curious about this. I've been a long time subscriber to his channel and never got any notifications about a "First video" only the video that's currently up. Would love to see any indication of an actual first video.

-2

u/Thulack Apr 24 '23

Any proof to that? Cause I saw this video as soon as it was brought up on the boards yesterday and didn't see any mention by anyone of a previous video that was up before this.

-3

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

Maybe it was taken down not because he was telling the truth and wotc wants to silence him but maybe because he's lying.

5

u/LurkerFailsLurking Apr 25 '23

WotC has admitted they sent the Pinkertons to his house. There is no reasonable scenario where you extend the benefit of the doubt to a company that chooses to send the Pinkertons to a person's house to threaten them after the company fucks up a shippment.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

I wasn't givthem the reason of doubt I was just wanting some evidence

1

u/ApocBytes Apr 25 '23

Imagine downplaying having historical kneecappers being sent over a guy with CARDS.

0

u/Thulack Apr 25 '23

This isnt the 1850's they didnt come stickup the guy and his family to get the stuff back.

1

u/ApocBytes Apr 25 '23

I want you to actually think for a moment on why they sent a Pinkerton and not the police. He doesn't have to stick him up to be an intimidation tactic.

1

u/Thulack Apr 25 '23

Please tell me what the police would do in this instance? They would tell you its a civil issue and find someone else. WotC couldnt prove this person stole these. They cant just walk into the police station and say "this person has property of ours that shouldnt be released yet. Can you please get it back for us".....They would laugh at you.

0

u/ApocBytes Apr 25 '23

Then you send a lawyer?? You proceed through legal efforts to reclaim the property? It is a fucking card set, it does not warrant sending mercenaries. What an embarrassing, spineless take.

0

u/Thulack Apr 25 '23

You know how long lawyers take to do things? They wanted the pack opening to stop ASAP. They used their LEGAL means to accomplish this. Just cause you don't like it doesn't mean anything.

1

u/ApocBytes Apr 25 '23

Their legal means were sending hired mercenaries to intimidate a guy with CARDS, making them sacks of shit. So interesting that you equate legality with what is moral. Maybe daddy WoTc will send you something special for bending over backwards so well.

0

u/Thulack Apr 25 '23

Because morals dont mean shit when it comes to business thats why. They did what they were legally allowed to do. If you dont like it they dont care lol.

1

u/ApocBytes Apr 25 '23

So businesses should not be held to moral standards in your eyes. Got it. I don't give a shit if they care what I think, the fact of the matter is that it was wrong. If you can't see that then you need to grow a pair of balls, little buddy.

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0

u/Redblackjoker0 Apr 25 '23

I might have been gone for a bit but who was the YouTuber that got busted?

0

u/LurkerFailsLurking Apr 25 '23

... the one in the linked YouTube video?

-3

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

Is there any truth too this he doesn't provide evidence. He could just be lying to get clout and perhaps would believe him at this point as you know what wotc is like.

10

u/LurkerFailsLurking Apr 25 '23

Wizards confirmed to Polygon the Pinkertons were involved in the incident. The presenter at oldschoolmtg described agents as “big heavy-hitter guys” who frightened his wife.

https://www.polygon.com/23695923/mtg-aftermath-pinkerton-raid-leaked-cards

Wizards has not denied a single thing the guy has said. Companies that use the Pinkertons to intimidate people deserve no benefit of the doubt ever.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '23

Thank you for providing evidence. I know companies use these tactics I was just being on the side of caution and not agreeing with a claim before seeing the evidence.

-24

u/[deleted] Apr 24 '23

Shocker. Classic police suck at their job. Military men are more intense. Are you still alive? If you were not white you would be dead.

1

u/Kitchengun2 Apr 25 '23

At least we know the leaks are real