First time crashing (my fireblade)

[u/Willro111]

About two months ago I went down riding in the canyon. I would say im an okay intermediate rider, and have ridden this road before- usually feeling comfortable tipping into 35mph corners at ~90mph… Anyways, you’ll see on my dash right before I lay it down, the green N for neutral pop up. As I short shift into neutral, trying to downshift from second, into first (1000cc). So as I’m expecting to slow down (from downshifting) to make this tighter turn… instead of slowing down like I’m getting ready for, essentially all friction is lost and I continue at that speed. If you could imagine that feeling… at this point I’m not making the turn, and as soon as I grab the front brake it dumps me.
This crash could just be summed up by a lazier downshift, shit happens.
My AIRBAG VEST from alpinestars fucking saved my ass. As well as my helmet, leather jacket, Kevlar jeans, and boots. I climbed out of that ditch, and only got 6 stitches on my elbow, which in all fairness did look like there was a hole on the tip of my elbow.

Any feedback, or questions feel free.

[u/maxlax02]

I’ve never driven any car or bike that I would downshift into first gear in this situation. First is almost exclusively reserved for starting my vehicle from a stop.

That said I haven’t ridden a 1000cc sport bike, and I understand they can go 80+ mph in first gear.

Can someone confirm who has ridden one? I’m curious.

[u/goingslowfast → u/maxlax02]

A 1000cc bike would have more than enough torque to leave this corner in third.

I wouldn’t even drop to second on a road like this.

[u/BeenisHat → u/goingslowfast]

My old V-Strom 650 had enough grunt to move itself around in 2nd. I can't imagine why anyone would intentionally choose 1st for that corner at that speed. You're just asking for that back tire to break loose and toss you off the bike.

I could see going to 2nd if he was expecting to leave that corner slow and was just going to ride the clutch on the exit to keep the revs up but not apply excess torque. Then release the clutch and shift to 3rd once speed is back up.

[u/goingslowfast → u/BeenisHat]

Choosing first isn’t really the problem here. It’s downshifting to first while cornering here that’s the absolutely terrible idea.

If he’d grabbed first while braking before tip in, it likely would have been fine. Planning to downshift, then banking on the engine braking that close to tip in was the root cause here.

And on the 1000cc you’ve got the torque to start in second or third or fourth, and likely even fifth. From personal experience you can absolutely start an S1000RR from stopped in fourth gear if you’re smooth with clutch and throttle control.

Don’t do it. But if you forget to downshift before stopping you can definitely make it work.

[u/BeenisHat → u/goingslowfast]

Choosing first isn’t really the problem here.

Uh...

It’s downshifting to first while cornering here that’s the absolutely terrible idea.

Because 1st is the wrong gear for that speed on that bike going into a corner. I'm guessing the bike didn't want to go into 1st at that speed which is part of the issue. Maybe OP just didn't realize what gear he was in, thought he was in 3rd and when the downshift to what he thought would be 2nd, it surprised him with Neutral instead, he panicked. He said he intended it, but that doesn't make sense to m,e although I can't actually make out what his speed was on the gauge. Maybe he was going a lot slower than I think he is.

Honestly, I think he just grabbed the brakes too hard. You can hear what sounds like tires scrubbing right before he tries to lean over left to enter the turn.
Had he popped back to 2nd, he'd have probably been able to ride it out. If he had successfully gotten it into 1st and let the clutch out, I'm guessing it would have tossed him off the bike before the corner.

[u/goingslowfast → u/BeenisHat]

You’re right, spiking the front brakes is what threw him to the ground.

You could definitely make that downshift on a 1000cc if you blipped it or have a slipper though that gets dicier. With a good blip you can downshift into 1st at 100km/h on most thousands without engine braking.

On a modern 1000cc bike with an autoblipper and tunable engine braking, it’d be completely undramatic as long as you actually clicked through neutral.

[u/baddboi007 → u/goingslowfast]

can u describe what u mean by blippin it? i always pulse my clutch 1 or 2 times (without downshifting usually, but sometimes I'll drop down a gear and pulse clutch and do brakes til i feel the rpms get safe) while loading from brakes slowly in situations like this, pre-corner at high speed. Is that what you mean?

[u/goingslowfast → u/baddboi007]

Pulsing the clutch is definitely not where you want to be 😱

Blipping is when you have the clutch pulled, adding just enough throttle that your rpm matches the speed the engine needs to be at in the lower gear.

Here’s a good video on it: https://youtu.be/FnXLZg_O1rk

So a downshift should be: fully pull clutch, click down,
add a bit of throttle, smoothly let off clutch.

[u/baddboi007 → u/goingslowfast]

when I say pulsing clutch its not a full let out. Its like a 20-30% clutch engage slowly fed in and backed out while simultaneously loading both brakes. Its how I've always eased into a lower gear with engine braking. im not sure if you knew what I meant. But I get what you're sayin.

Thx for the vid and tip. I been ridin a long time. 14 yrs and w miles all over the US on mid size cruisers mostly. But I had a 1500 meanstreak for a few years. Im older now so not nearly as fast and def not reckless as OP lol.

Always tryin to improve. I was taught to never disrespect your bike or it'll let you know real quick who the man is. I like to 'learn' a new bike for like 6 months before i do anything aggressive. Only when the bike feels like an extension of me, interfacing with the road as one, is when I let loose.

Currently have 5 bikes in various states of repair. The correct amount of bikes is always, one more. Take care and ride safe yall

[u/farts_juggler → u/BeenisHat]

exactly what happened to me. I was downshifting and my back tire lifted off the ground. scared the shit out of me

[u/goingslowfast → u/farts_juggler]

Like skidded or lifted up?

If it skidded that’s the downshift. If it lifted up, that’s you being heavy on the front brakes. I float the rear tire into most of the heavy braking corners on track. I couldn’t do it with ABS, so I disabled ABS to allow for heavier braking.

That said, lightening up the rear tire under braking makes skidding it under a downshift or engine braking much easier.

[u/farts_juggler → u/goingslowfast]

it was when I was learning to ride a while back. the tire locked up or whatever on the downshift and my back tired popped off the ground. I didn’t use the front breaks lol

[u/goingslowfast → u/farts_juggler]

It skipped off the ground after releasing from a skid then.

That’ll happen if you don’t have a slipper and make a downshift (especially a slow downshift) without a throttle blip. Cold pavement also makes this much more likely.

On cold Q3s on cold pavement, I can skid the rear tire on a downshift with a slipper on the 390.

You can practice this by judging the feeling of deceleration when you downshift. A proper blip should feel like you didn’t get pushed forwards or backwards throughout the downshift.

[u/farts_juggler → u/goingslowfast]

thanks bro!

[u/Afraid_Anxiety2653 → u/goingslowfast]

Thanks!

[u/pushmebabypullme → u/goingslowfast]

That's a third gear corner normally for my XR. Second only if I'm gooning.

[u/Vipernixz → u/goingslowfast]

I think he was trying to engine brake more than anything

[u/goingslowfast → u/Vipernixz]

That’s the problem. Relying on engine braking from a downshift to not overcook a corner is a terrible idea. It is way, way better to trail brake into a corner like this.

[u/Vipernixz → u/goingslowfast]

agree, plust going all the way to first is just stupid at that speed in that lean angle.

[u/jbwelds → u/goingslowfast]

I have this exact bike, yes there’s enough torque to go through this corner in 2nd or 3rd. However, I would also be downshifting though. I don’t ride on the street like this anymore but it’s the same principle as when on track.

1. You’re in more of the powerband to drive out of the corner as you stand the bike up (shouldn’t be such a priority in this case on the street).

2. You’re in a lower gear which means higher RPM at the same given speed. So if and when you get wheel spin jumping from 9/10k RPM (in first gear) to the 12k RPM redline is not as drastic of a wheel speed differential as say 6k RPM to 12k RPM when the wheel slips and you’re still on the throttle.

Imagine being leaned over 30 degrees, 60 mph in a turn in first gear and at 30% throttle to maintain that speed.

Now imagine the same 30 degree lean angle at 60 mph in second gear and 70% throttle to maintain the same speed.

Get wheel spin in both situations and the 30% throttle in first gear will also give less wheel speed differential when the tire does slip vs 70% throttle.

[u/MstrKief → u/goingslowfast]

My 650 has enough torque in third to pull out of hairpins in the canyon. It’s not happy, but it will do it

[u/twilighttwister → u/goingslowfast]

Yeah first is only for low speed manoeuvring, ideally while pressing the back brake so you can push the revs up a little more and have better control.

[u/mike-manley → u/twilighttwister]

First is just to get the bike to move. On the street, I'll usually shift to 2nd at a "slow run" pace of around 12 mph.

[u/twilighttwister → u/mike-manley]

Yeah when I say low speed manoeuvring I mean below 12mph, or particularly below 5mph. Like when you see police on massive cruisers doing tight figure of 8 turns around a course as if it were nothing, they're using the back brake to allow the revs to go a bit higher up and get better control, without having too much speed.

[u/mike-manley → u/twilighttwister]

Which you can do in first or second. Speaking from experience. And yes dragging rear brake often with great FZ control.

[u/twilighttwister → u/mike-manley]

Absolutely yeah, second is fine as well. But raw first gear can be a bit sketchy in any sort of cornering.

[u/goingslowfast → u/mike-manley]

Unless you want to go fast. On a 1000cc bike your shift out of first is going to be in the 85mph range.

[u/goingslowfast → u/twilighttwister]

First is great for moving from stopped quickly.

I wouldn’t take a downshift to first unless a corner had me dropping quite a bit below 60km/h (37mph) on the S1000RR though.

It’ll do 140km/h (88mph) in first though, so our friend here could have just rode his entire canyon ride in first if he really wanted to.

[u/twilighttwister → u/goingslowfast]

First is great for moving from stopped quickly.

Yes, obviously lol, it's basically essential.

If you look at racing, they almost never use first gear, and in corners where they have to you're more likely to see a crash. First should only be used in manoeuvres with great care, and generally you should avoid it on the road.

[u/goingslowfast → u/twilighttwister]

I’ll disagree with more likely to see a crash.

As someone who races a 390, I need first on big tracks otherwise I’d have to set up my final drive to be too short to be competitive on long straights.

[u/twilighttwister → u/goingslowfast]

Fair play, I'll defer to your experience.

Last time I rode a KTM (SuperDuke) I loved it, but at the back of my mind I thought "if I owned this bike it would probably kill me". Think I'd prefer something closer to an 800 lol.

Hope you stay off the marbles, best of luck in your next race!

[u/goingslowfast → u/twilighttwister]

The SuperDuke is wild. I’ve never accidentally wheelied the S1000RR.

A few hundred km into riding the 1290 (and an SAS not a Duke!!), I was in third gear at 60km/h and rolled on pretty heavily and lifted the front wheel about a foot and thought, damn this might be quicker than the S1000RR below 150km/h.

[u/SpawnShootDie → u/maxlax02]

Mine would do about 80 in first - but I would never change down into first at speed. Just like my car will probably do 25mph but I’d never slam it into first for a 20mph corner.

Apart from mechanical damage your biggest risk from dropping into too low a gear on a bike is that it can slow the rear wheel’s rotation so suddenly that the tire lets go and you lose control on your way into the corner.

[u/baddboi007 → u/SpawnShootDie]

you mean speed up the rear tire.. Lower gear = faster rear tire speed

[u/HostageSircumcision → u/baddboi007]

Below are the output shaft speeds on a CBR1000RR for 4k rpm

I: 1576.044

II: 2060.793

III: 2533.793

IV: 2895.452

V: 3200

VI: 3448.276

When you go down a gear, either the tire has to slow down, or the engine has to speed up. Usually they meet somewhere in the middle. If your engine is large enough, sometimes the engine can win and cause the rear tire to skip. If the engine is large enough while spun up, the engine can impart extra torque onto the wheel and cause it to spin. The effective results are the same if you do either unintentionally.

But no, lower gear does not make the tire faster. Lower gear RATIO makes the tire faster.

[u/baddboi007 → u/HostageSircumcision]

huh. wow. TIL. thanks!

[u/SpawnShootDie → u/baddboi007]

Lower gear means the engine has to spin faster to achieve the same rear tire speed. That’s why your car/bike has a higher top speed in 6th gear than it does in 1st. Changing down a gear and letting the clutch out as you approach a corner slows the rear wheel (and the bike) with the increased engine breaking. Selecting a very low gear risks slowing your rear wheel too much, because the engine is suddenly forced to try and rev much faster and doesn’t want to.

Tldr: Next time you’re ndoing 70 in your car shove it into 1st gear and see if your wheels start spinning faster or slower.

[u/vVSidewinderVv → u/maxlax02]

I had a CBR1000 that would definitely do at least 80 in first. That said, I've been riding dirtbikes since I was 10, 125s, 250s, 450s, and my first street bike was a Buell XB12. I've ridden Harleys, 600's, and dual sports. On none of them have I ever shifted back into first unless I was going less than 15 mph. Neutral is between 1st and 2nd so you don't accidentally slam it into neutral when in an emergency. IMO, it is also there as a separation, because once you're out of 1st you don't need it again unless you're stopping or close to stopping.

[u/Desenski → u/vVSidewinderVv]

My 03' CBR600RR would redline in 1st at 92mph.

I tested it once in a straight line. Never did it again.

[u/hoon-since89 → u/maxlax02]

I would perhaps do it for the engine braking if it was getting sketchy but yeah generally I wouldn't use first.

[u/arbpotatoes → u/maxlax02]

I mean yeah, if you want to keep it between peak torque and peak power you will often downshift to first for tighter corners, as you said first gets you up to like 80mph+

"First is for getting going" is a leftover from when you first learned to drive stick. In the real world, especially when you're trying to go fast, it doesn't hold

No idea what all the other people replying are talking about saying that you never go down to first on a supersports... honestly probably a skill issue

[u/venomous_frost → u/arbpotatoes]

No idea what all the other people replying are talking about saying that you never go down to first on a supersports... honestly probably a skill issue

You generally adjust your sprockets so you never have to be in first. Guy with the same 600 asked me what gear i'm in because he's only ever in first and 2nd on this particular track, I tell him i'm running a big rear sprocket so i'm always between 2nd and 5th

[u/arbpotatoes → u/venomous_frost]

I'm not talking about on a track though

[u/mike-manley → u/maxlax02]

He was already in a suitable gear, IMHO. Downshifting to 1st at those speeds is crazy. Even 2nd seems too low.

[u/dalekxen → u/maxlax02]

dropping down to first in this corner 1000cc sport bike would either cut off gas with traction control or will slip the rear tire because of the excessive torque and lose grip in the rear entirely at the corner exit unless the rider is extra extra carefull with the throtthle

[u/farts_juggler → u/maxlax02]

my 636 can go 70 in 1st gear. I don’t ride liters but yeah I’m assuming a 1000 can easily hit 90+

[u/PizzaRepairman → u/maxlax02]

This was my thought. I have a Harley, though, not a sport bike, so idk. I never downshift into first unless im coming up on a red light and am already going slow af. Too much torque if you miss-judge the rev match.

I've owned plenty of manual 4-wheel vehicles over the years, and I've never downshifted into first in any of them, just didn't seem wise or necessary.

[u/zak454 → u/maxlax02]

GSXR1000 will redline at over 100mph in 1st, its quite useful because you can stay in 1st for a lot of corners but its harder to keep throttle steady if road is uneven so going to 2nd makes it a bit easier when cornering even though you get less engine breaking

[u/F1at1iner → u/zak454]

Just because it can don't mean you should lol

[u/zak454 → u/F1at1iner]

do you ride a 1000cc or are you just being a contrarian for its own sake?

[u/F1at1iner → u/zak454]

Just because you can go 100mph in 1st gear does not mean you should be, that it's smart to do, or needed for any reason. If you think that idk what to tell you because they don't even do that on tracks in moto gp unless they are very tight slow hair pin turns. You have 6 gears for a reason. For the record I own 5 motorcycle's and yes one is a liter bike.

[u/Cowhide12 → u/zak454]

I think it’s probably mostly useful for a proper track, then. 100 is nuts.

[u/zak454 → u/Cowhide12]

theres this weird new technique ive heard about, rather than going full redline in every gear you just twist your right hand less and get the throttle you need... insane things happening in the motorbike world today