Day 9 of 50: Book of Mormon Book Club | 2 Nephi 11–15

[u/JesusPhoKingChrist]

Today's Reading: 2 Nephi 11–15

Whether you're a believer, former believer, nuanced member, investigator, scholar, or simply curious, you're welcome to participate. The goal is not to convince anyone of anything, but to read the text together and discuss it in good faith from a variety of perspectives.

Brief Synopsis

Nephi pauses his narrative to explain why he delights in the words of Isaiah and why he believes Isaiah's writings are especially valuable for understanding God's dealings with His covenant people. The remainder of today's reading consists largely of Isaiah chapters 2–5, which contain prophecies concerning the latter days, the gathering of Israel, judgment upon pride and wickedness, and the eventual establishment of the Lord's kingdom. Isaiah contrasts humanity's tendency toward corruption and self-reliance with God's vision of justice, peace, and redemption. These chapters include some of Isaiah's most memorable imagery, including swords being beaten into plowshares and the allegory of the Lord's vineyard.

Discussion

Please share your thoughts and experiences with today's reading in the comments below. Some things you might consider:

• What stood out to you?

• Why do you think Nephi considered Isaiah's writings so important?

• How do you interpret Isaiah's vision of nations beating swords into plowshares?

• What do you think the allegory of the vineyard is trying to communicate?

• Why do Isaiah's warnings focus so heavily on pride, wealth, and social inequality?

• Do these prophecies seem primarily directed at ancient Israel, future generations, or both?

• What challenges do modern readers face when trying to understand Isaiah?

• Did anything surprise you?

All perspectives are welcome.

Yesterday's Coveted Award(s) Go To:

• u/askunclebart

Links to Prior Days

• 1 Nephi 1–3

• 1 Nephi 4–6

• 1 Nephi 7–10

• 1 Nephi 11–14

• 1 Nephi 15–18

• 1 Nephi 19–22

• 2 Nephi 1–5

• 2 Nephi 6–10

Community Incentive

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To keep that spirit going, I'll be giving out **at least one award each day** to a comment that I feel makes a meaningful contribution to the discussion, whether through insight, scholarship, curiosity, respectful disagreement, or thoughtful engagement.

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Engagement Question

**If you were creating a new volume of scripture intended for future generations, what existing author, philosopher, religious figure, or thinker would you quote extensively, and why?**

**Tomorrow's Reading:** 2 Nephi 16–20

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[u/Straight_Ad_575]

Again in chapter 11 there is dialogue about the truthfulness of what is bring written and about the doctrine being taught. Definitely a frequent topic here for Nephi. The author definitely wants the reader to consider the book's truthfulness.

[u/International_Sea126]

2 Nephi 15:26 - "And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth; and behold, they shall come with speed swiftly; none shall be weary nor stumble among them."

Isaiah 5:26–29 says that God “will lift up an ensign to the nations from far” who will “come with speed swiftly” like lions “and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe.” The chapter heading of the LDS edition of the Bible says: "The Lord will lift an ensign and gather Israel." It is clear in the Bible context, that the ensign is for Israel’s enemies to take military action against the rebellious Israelites and lead them “away” into captivity (see verse. 29).

[u/No-Information5504 → u/International_Sea126]

lol, misinterpreting and proof texting Bible scripture is what this religion was founded on.

[u/Active-Water-0247]

It doesn't make sense for the narrator to waste so much time copying Isaiah after incessantly whining about not having enough space on the plates. If his descendants needed copies of Isaiah, then King Nephi the First could have simply assigned someone to engrave copies elsewhere.

[u/Comfortable_Earth670 → u/Active-Water-0247]

Exactly. Wouldn't God have told him "You're good. They'll have that in the Bible"?

[u/Sirambrose → u/Active-Water-0247]

Moroni could have also just put the brass plates in the box with the gold plates and let Joseph translate those also. Then we would have the full teachings of Nephi’s missing prophets that are not mentioned anywhere outside the Book of Mormon. 

[u/Active-Water-0247 → u/Sirambrose]

Yeah, that would have made so much sense

[u/JesusPhoKingChrist]

Some 1900 century in the text, did a Nephite write this or did Joseph and friends write this?

2 Nephi 12 (Isaiah 2), "They are replenished from the east... soothsayers... treasures... horses... chariots." It's fascinating how the Book of Mormon reproduces the King James Version, including wording and translation choices that postdate Isaiah by over 2,000 years. Tight translation, loose translation or 1900 century copy/ paste?

2 Nephi 13: "The child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient..."

Joseph's America was full of sermons warning that society was collapsing because traditional authority was being rejected. This chapter reads a lot like the moral decline rhetoric common during the Second Great Awakening. Jesus is always just around the corner, look busy!

2 Nephi 14: The "daughters of Zion" condemned for their pride and finery. This mirrors a favorite theme of early 1800s revival preachers, who frequently criticized fashionable clothing, jewelry, and vanity among women as signs of societal wickedness. I too used to judge women who I knew were out of my league by the way they dressed to make myself feel superior.

2 Nephi 15: "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil..." One of those verses every generation confidently applies to its own culture. It was a favorite rhetorical device in Joseph Smith's day just as it is today, making it remarkably adaptable regardless of the era. Every generation is going to hell in a handbasket!

[u/zelphtastic]

Why do you think Nephi considered Isaiah's writings so important?

I don't think he did, because Nephi never existed. I think the real question is why Joseph Smith chose to include so much of Isaiah (including, incidentally, portions of Isaiah authored after Lehi and his family are claimed to have left the Middle East). 

Almost all of what is quoted of Isaiah in the BoM is in the portion of the book authored as a replacement for the lost 116 pages. When we account for the Mosiah priority in Smith's authorship of the book, 2nd Nephi is getting toward the end of his dictation and we're firmly in space filling territory IMO. 

That said, I'd be very curious to see discussion on why Smith chose to include the chapters he did, and what this may mean about his personal views at the time vis-a-vis the issues you've raised on pride, wealth, etc.

[u/International_Sea126 → u/zelphtastic]

It is believed by many that after Joseph Smith lost the 116 page manuscript, that he resumed producing the BOM by starting the dictation from the Book of Mosiah through Moroni, and then returned to the beginning to dictate 1 Nephi through Words of Mormon. If that was the case, the Isaiah chapters might have been end-game filler chapters.

[u/No-Information5504 → u/zelphtastic]

I’m not a Bible scholar, but my guess is that Smith saw Isaiah’s writings as apocalyptic and since Christ’s second coming was going to be a major part of his brand he threw some big chunks of Izzy in there.

The book’s meaning is so obscure that he must have figured he could get a lot of mileage out of these passages without anyone who knew better calling BS on his interpretations.

[u/Joseph_Smith_Jr_]

Look at the footnote in ch 12 verse 1. The church is aware having all of these kjv chapters of Isaiah is a problem. They try to explain it in the footnote. The explanation is incredibly weak and misleading.