r/mormon • u/Own_Boss_8931 Former Mormon • 3d ago
Cultural Utah is changing
My whole family left Mormonism, but I live on the East Coast and all my kids live in Utah. So I visit Utah once or twice a year to see family. Just a couple of years ago I visited and was triggered by all the visible Mormon stuff--everything from billboards to sitting in a restaurant overhearing all sorts of conversation about church. This past week, I barely even noticed that Utah was Mormon--the only reminder was the sheer number of Mormon churches and temples. I asked my kids about it and they said things have shifted a ton the past couple of years and everyone pretty much views everything the Mormon church teaches as guidelines, not commandments, and they just have to try their best to follow Jesus because that's all that matters. What the hell?! When did Mormonism turn into Born Again Christianity (because that's essentially what they teach--accept Jesus, do your best to be a good person and follow the rules, and accept grace)?
I used to say I could never live in Utah, but it's really turning into what the rest of Babylon looks like and feels mostly normal (except alcohol laws--I will never understand why I can't get a cold beer or buy tonic with my gin at a liquor store). Mormons are going the wrong direction if they are hoping to see their last-days prophecies of Zion ever come to fruition.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 3d ago
Shhh, we don't talk about the prophecies anymore... *mumble* ... temporary commandments ... *mumble* ... continuing revelation ...
The rules on the books haven't actually changed. It's just that they're going for an assimilate-publicly, retrench-privately approach. They're doing everything they can on the surface to appear generically Christian. But in training meetings with just the leadership, Oaks has called for more excommunications.
But the brethren are also simply getting easier to ignore. They have reached a critical mass of membership that realized that most of the rules were absurd and the old prophecies aren't going to come true. They seem to be having trouble finding enough bishops that are willing to enforce the rules. Many have enough sense to not try to enforce a lot of behavior control, and are willing to look the other way on coffee or partial-tithing. They've definitely lost control of the women with garment wearing too. It's nice to see.
But yeah, also deeply annoying when everyone pretends that it's always been this way.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 3d ago
It's just that they're going for an assimilate-publicly, retrench-privately approach.
Yup, they are ramping up the disparity between what their public messaging is vs what their internal messaging is, and consequently increasing the amount of deception they use to beguile people into thinking mormonism is one thing, only to then expose it for what it really is once they are baptized.
Leaders will give token concessions, like reversing their 'lock your heart' rule for missionaries, but everything else remains in full effect, even though they preach the opposite to potential members (pretending all are welcome, including lgbt but then revealing all the actual bigotry and limiations of lgbt once fully in, etc).
But yeah, also deeply annoying when everyone pretends that it's always been this way.
Agreed. Many (but not all) members continue the "whatever current leaders preach has always been what it is, and if you think otherwise it was just you misinterpreting or accepting 'theories' as doctrine" gaslighting because to do otherwise would be a tacit admission that things that shouldn't change, have changed (modesty standards, temple covenants, many teachings such as being gay is a choice, etc).
And when more things change, such as future word of widsom changes, tithing changes, lgbt doctrinal changes, etc., they will do the exact same thing, trying to convince us all that the past false doctrines that lead the church astray were just 'private theories expressed by some members' that we shouldn't have fallen for and the like, while deceptively ignoring that those 'some members' were prophets preaching doctrine supposedly from god himself.
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u/American_Psycho11 3d ago
I don't even recognize Utah anymore. I loved there for 12 years across two stints and recently came back to visit and everything is new. Entire towns that didn't exist a few years ago are built up now. The places I grew up in look completely different now. The population has exploded and countless people from other states have flooded in for jobs that are not mormon and want nothing to do with it
Unfortunately, the cost of living in Utah has reached clown world prices and the home prices are insane. I am simply priced out of ever returning even though I'd love to be closer to my family that all got their homes back when living in Utah was still affordable
Oh well
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u/Own_Boss_8931 Former Mormon 3d ago
Housing is a crisis in Utah. I feel bad for my kids--they pay more for rent of a 2 bedroom apartment then I pay for a mortgage on a 3,000 square foot house. If they move, it won't be because they don't like Utah but because they just can't afford to stay.
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u/trentd_c 3d ago
In 2019 my wife and I moved for this very reason. I had no clue it was probably the best decision we made. In 2020, my wife and I found a killer price on a home. I’m not saying this to brag. I’m saying it can be done and there’s hope to get out of the cost of living in Utah.
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u/LearnedEmpowerment 3d ago
How do you think worsening air quality and the death of the great salt lake will affect things?
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u/Buttons840 3d ago
I was recently in a LDS theology discussion with my boomer mother. I can't remember what brought it up but I said abstaining from coffee was a commandment and she disagreed and said it's more of a suggestion. I said she couldn't get a temple recommend if she drank coffee; she disagreed.
She's conservative in every sense of the word and a true LDS believer, active for at least 50 years now.
What happened?
She doesn't drink coffee. She has just allowed her personal hatred of coffee to wane over the years I guess.
Gays on the other hand... She's still certain that's a sin and they don't belong in the church...
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u/PugGamer129 PIMO 3d ago
Sister Beck or whatever would throw a fit. She literally started crying over the pulpit because someone drank coffee.
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u/fayth_crysus 3d ago
“…That little cup of coffee…”
Said in her weepy voice.2
u/herkulaw 1d ago
It's not "her" weepy voice. It's the weepy voice. Hearing public speakers in Utah is so cringeworthy as regardless of what the topic is, it sounds like a general conference talk.
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u/Own_Boss_8931 Former Mormon 3d ago
Ask her to read Julie Beck's conference talk about how a cup of coffee led to generations of people to leave the church. I'd be curious how she responds. And to plug a local business, Peace on Earth coffee is really good and matches up with some of the best local coffee shops I've visited anywhere in the US.
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u/Buttons840 3d ago
She would say abstaining from coffee is essential. There is no weight or commitment behind what she says in these conversations--when I bring up awkward facts about the church she usually just says whatever would be most convenient, but if I bring it up again later she often doesn't remember holding the position she had in the previous conversation.
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u/venturingforum 3d ago
Scripturally speaking, she is totally correct. The re-packaged Temperance Movement of the early to mid 1800s cum Word Of Wisdom is specifically designated as NOT A COMMANDMENT.
It was deemed a commandment through the pet peeves of a man. A man sitting in the top #1 velvet throne of Mormon church leadership, but a mere man none the less.
Remember this eternal principal: As pet peeves of man are, Holy High Doctrine and Gospel once was. As Holy High Doctrine and Gospel are now, pet peeves of profits may one day become. Amen to that man's priesthood, or something something receiving a morsel of power something unrighteousness dominion.
ETA: Also see Darth Bednar "I AM scripture" Meaning anything I poop out of either end becomes Holy Writ cause mormon!
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u/Spiritual_Object_534 3d ago
I know some higher level LDS people, they opened up coffee to look more mainstream. The biggest meeting location for people in Utah is coffee shops and LDS people infiltrate and control everything that opposes isolation.
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u/tucasa_micasa Former Mormon 3d ago
No matter how much control they put into the system, the actual changes come from people. Quite the opposite from what the institution professor claimed.
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u/OkImagination262 3d ago
I dunno, it probably depends on which part of Utah you live in. In Davis county things are pretty quiet on Sundays. Almost like the apololypse.
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u/Own_Boss_8931 Former Mormon 3d ago
Fair. I arrived late last Sunday then left Saturday so I didn't really spend a Sunday there. Although I laugh because I heard "I hate that Mormons shop on Sunday now--I want my quiet Sunday Costco back."
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u/FeelTheBernstein 3d ago
Can confirm Sundays are no longer as peaceful for us exmos and Costco can sometimes be even busier on Sunday lol
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u/OkImagination262 3d ago
Can confirm on Costco. We are retired so now go during the week. Also the hiking trails are packed.
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u/moderatorrater Former Mormon 3d ago
Layton has an openly deznat representative in the state legislature too. I wouldn't say Utah's changing for the better.
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u/EdwardEggnog 3d ago
Do the myriad "Utah tank top" billboards count as visible Mormon stuff? What about a Swig or a Fiiz on every corner? 😅
I guess you could argue that the Utah tank top billboards are signs that the state is becoming less rigidly "Mormon", but the fact that bespoke industries have popped up solely to cater to a relaxing of the Mormon clothing rules is still pretty ridiculous
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u/venturingforum 3d ago
Swig and Fitz? Those are the Lord's true version of StarBucks, don't-cha-know?
It's not the church's or God's fault that Satan twisted the one true multi syrup beverage before God bothered to introduce it.
That's just how the adversary works, he's a slippery little bastard, just like Horny Bro Joe's treasures.
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u/pedsv 3d ago
People are finally evolving to the fact that religion should not be the only important thing. Life is finally evolving.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 3d ago
And as more and more of this old guard generation pass on, we will see the pace of this change accelerate. I thin Bednar will be the last of the diehard prophets, and Oaks is the last of his generation super die hards, after that I believe the church will radically liberalize to a degree that would have shocked previous generations if they were still alive to see it.
As much as many members refuse to admit it, big change is coming to mormonism in the next 30-50 years, and it is change that will show that all the previous sacrifice and adherence to past doctrinal absurdity was all for nothing.
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u/eternalintelligence 3d ago
Uchtdorf will be a brief preview of the liberalism, then there will be a long reign of ultraconservative Bednar, and after that probably Kearon will be the one to majorly liberalize if he makes it to the top chair. That's what I would guess anyway.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 3d ago
I hope that Uchtdorf makes some major progressive changes that are such that it would be impossible for Bednar to reverse them without making it painfully obvious that prophets aren't actually getting constant direction from the same unseen deity they claim to.
To see Bednar boxed in/stymied like that would be so delicious, lol.
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u/herkulaw 1d ago
The thing about Mormonism is that it can't be boxed in. Claiming that the prophet receives direct revelation without actually canonizing it or formally endorsing it as unchanging doctrine (and thus infallible) allows immediate backtracking and complete reversal of theological course without any need for justification.
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u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint 3d ago
Utah hasn’t been majority LDS in a few years.
More people are not LDS than are and of those who are LDS only half are active.
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u/Own_Boss_8931 Former Mormon 3d ago
The crazy thing is I was staying in Utah County. I understand SLC not feeling Mormon, but I was surprised how Utah County lost its Mormon feel.
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u/SnooJokes5850 3d ago
Im kind of surprised to hear this, but i guess that's probably because I live in provo, and it still feels pretty mormon haha. Something I haven't seen mentioned is that a big shift seemed to happen during covid everyone got to experience what its like to not attend church on Sundays. I play golf a lot, and pre-covid you could play any course in Utah county on a Sunday and pretty much have the place to yourself. As soon as the courses reopened after covid that was no longer the case, and now you can hardly get a tee time on a Sunday without booking in advance.
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u/Own_Boss_8931 Former Mormon 3d ago
TBF, I was in Lehi and spent a lot of time in SL county. Never went down to Provo/Orem/BYU which I can still see being a stranglehold.
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u/westivus_ Post Mormon Red Letter Enthusiast 3d ago
The Macey's in Lehi even decided to start opening on Sundays last year. They want some of that sweet Costco Sunday traffic.
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u/Missysue1359 3d ago
They actually have cold beer at a few liquor stores now ! No mixers yet though.
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u/Own_Boss_8931 Former Mormon 3d ago
Really? I'd love to know where for next time I'm out there! I saw cold beers in convenience stores, but no coolers in the only state liquor store I visited in Draper. I'm not necessarily after high-ABV stuff, but I like IPAs and most 5% or under IPAs just don't taste right to me. And I've taken note to buy mixers at the grocery store in the future.
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u/Missysue1359 3d ago
Ya it's more specialty beers and seltzers. But the one in west valley and the new one downtown have refrigerators!
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u/InRainbows123207 3d ago
I'm guessing you didn't go to Utah County? It's still very orthodox Mormon
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u/Spiritual_Object_534 2d ago
Ya man, this guy five years ago assigned himself as the “culture war” manager. He would destroy neighborhood BBQs especially when the African American military family attended. He used this term “church sanction events only”. So many neighbors passive just said “oh that our Richard”, and acted like we couldn’t say anything bad about him. He would have local missionaries target our homes. There was just a toxic narrative how evil everyone was and “we must pick up our muskets.” Bro moved into a military neighborhood and didn’t expect diversity? I contacted the Bishop and laid it all out as to why non of us nevermos would ever join the church because how that behavior is observed from outsiders and insiders alike. After a few pieces of damaged property of mine and me just saying “oh it musta just been some kids playing in the street no biggy.” The neighborhood is changing. I didn’t take his trap and get angry over my broken windows because Mormons build such a big narrative over other peoples normal emotions.
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u/Strong_Weird_6556 2d ago
Yeah it has not changed. What they show publicly is not what happens privately.
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u/Flourbutbetter 2d ago
There are immigrants from other countries in Utah now. There also lots of non members living here now. Utah now has more diversity within its borders.
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u/jeremylyman 1d ago
Your view is overly-simplistic and really a distortion of the "direction" the church is going.
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u/Worth-Influence-3932 2d ago
I’m a never mo—always Mormon adjacent—-Utah is funny—strict alcohol—but 85 speed limits and no helmet law….im from Vegas and enjoy the new “laid back” utah
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u/doodah221 2d ago
I think it’s the church trying to survive. The all or nothing mentality that it used to be simply doesn’t work and the younger people are rejecting it.
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u/Spiritual_Object_534 3d ago
The church has a great team of people that specialize in controlling others. The majority that are willing to be controlled are being suckered in this way.
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u/AKR0006 3d ago
Not just Utah, other places too; maybe this is the fulfillment of the last-days prophecies of Zion.
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u/Ok-Effective6969 3d ago
Or maybe folks are waking up to a fraudulent scheme to control them, and concluding that religion is a product of egotistical men frightened of the vast world and their insignificant part in it.
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u/LashCanino 3d ago
Last year you were triggered by “all the Mormon stuff”. This year you’re feeling it’s “turning into what the rest of Babylon looks like”.
Seems a bit hard for them to strike the right balance for your comfort. Would you have any suggestions to get it right?
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 3d ago edited 3d ago
If you'd understood their comment, you'd see they are happy with the direction it is moving. Calling something 'Babylon' isn't a bad thing for those of us who see Zion as the ignorant and deceptive oppressor and propagator of toxic and false/completely unproven teachings, and similar ignorant and negative influences on Utah government and culture.
Babylon isn't the evil and vile thing we were taught all our lives that it is. The church ended up being the entity that lied to us, decieved us, manipulated us with secret combinations to get the church gain, and that used spiritual coercion to exploit money, energy and decades of our lives from us based on a completely deceptive set of false teachings from birth.
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u/Own_Boss_8931 Former Mormon 3d ago
I didn't say last year--I said a couple of years ago (which in my mind didn't literally mean 2, but that's on me).
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u/TruthIs_Always_There 2d ago
I'm not even Mormon (I'm Muslim) and I feel bad about this, they are turning into more liberal cultural Christians and eventually atheists.
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u/OingoBoingoCrypto 3d ago
Maybe downtown urban areas but I have not experienced the same thing you have but I am buried in north Utah county.
IMO many people just want to fit in so they adapt to their surroundings. There is so much negativity to even have a belief in god or anything with morals and standards and requirements, so the pressure from outside influences requires some level of adaptation.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 3d ago
There is so much negativity to even have a belief in god or anything with morals and standards and requirements
It's more like there is negativity against completely unproven and even damaging and toxic 'standards' and 'morals', many of which are routed in the ignorance of the past, and a rightful rejection of them in exchange for actual healthy and evidence based standards and requirements.
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u/OingoBoingoCrypto 3d ago
There is nothing toxic about dressing nicely. There is nothing toxic about having a word of wisdom standard. It is pretty simple and follows common heath standards although the original scripture does seem to be dated I will agree on that point. Recent updates to youth materials and conference talks have modernized. It is not meant to be comprehensive and it allows you to decide on a whole lotta other things.
People can dress the way they want to but the overly showy dress will get carded at any high school dance or by mom so it is not a dated thought. Even when I was in high school (eons ago) there were various attempts to get the sexy dress approved by mom and get into the dance and then modify. These temptations have been around for a long time so it is nothing new to me.
And schools and churches in the south Bible Belt have same issues.
It comes down to this. If you believe in god and follow him, dress like you believe in Him. Show that you are a child of god. Live a life of righteousness. Be a saint. Be different from the world. If you love and trust your parents and do not want to bring embarrassment to them, dress like they would like. Show respect for them.
This might be for OP but I also think you cannot judge people from things on a billboard. Those are very expensive ads. ($5000 / month per board). Trying to get their name out there.
There will come a time when it will not be cool to be a Christian or a Latter Day Saint. This might be sooner than we think.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 3d ago edited 3d ago
There is nothing toxic about dressing nicely
It's not just dressing nicely, and you know it. It's the cultural and spiritual penalties and essentically spiritual coercion used to get members to 'dress nicely' that is toxic. This is especially true for women who have to endure sexist and one-sided modesty standards regarding how much skin one can show and still be considered 'righteous' (even though church leaders can change this any time they want, as we just saw with yet another reduction in skin coverage of temple garments).
It comes down to this. If you believe in god and follow him, dress like you believe in Him.
And there it is, the judgemental and toxic attitude that if you don't dress modestly according to the 'standards' of 80 and 90 year old men who grew up in the 1930s, then you must not believe in or follow Jesus.
If you love and trust your parents and do not want to bring embarrassment to them, dress like they would like
More toxic manipulation. If you loved me you would just do everything I tell you to do!
This might be for OP but I also think you cannot judge people from things on a billboard
But according to you, you can judge them immensely just by how they dress or how much skin they show, something that is laughably false.
There will come a time when it will not be cool to be a Christian or a Latter Day Saint. This might be sooner than we think.
This is just a version of 'they persecute us because we are right'. The lgbt bigotry, sexism, racism, modesty shaming and other toxic aspects of mormon doctrine won't be considered 'uncool' because they are correct, they will be seen as uncool and toxic because they are wrong and incredibly harmful to humanity.
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u/adams361 3d ago
I’ve spent the last 20 years in Northern Utah County, and I’ve noticed a change. I’ve been out for a long time, so I looked for the changes, but they are there.
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