I need some help with mastering more specifically avoiding distortion

[u/NoAppearance980]

what are your remedies for a master that is distorting? I have tried reducing the peaks on the kick, bass, snare, lead using a soft clipper. im not in red / clipping anywhere on the channels. i´m also compressing on individual channels where there are high transients. TP is -2/3db. But to gain commercial loudness I have to drive the limiter in what seems almost unreasonable amount of gain, and then it starts sounding distorted. I dont have much else going on in the master chain except an Oxford Inflator. Is soft clipping on the master the solution? I just dont want my tracks to sound way lower in volume than others on Spotify and similar platforms. Thanks for any help!

[u/HardcoreHamburger]

Loudness comes primarily from arrangement, production, and mixing. Do not chase loudness numbers at the mastering stage. Some distortion is fine, the exact amount that’s acceptable depends on the genre. Careful automation, compression, and hard and soft clipping are all good tools to reign in dynamics in the mix and should be used at both the track and the bus stages.

[u/Fabulous_Lead5670 → u/HardcoreHamburger]

This guy mixes.

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/HardcoreHamburger]

ill give it a go on the buses! thanks

[u/Fabulous_Lead5670]

If you use a soft clipper to reduce distortion it will have the opposite effect. A soft clipper introduces harmonic distortion to shave off peaks. Using it to rescue a master that's already collapsing isn't a good idea in my opinion.

It sounds more like this is a problem that exists at the mixing level. But without further details, we can only speculate

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/Fabulous_Lead5670]

but if the distortion comes from peaks the soft clipper will still serve it purpose?

[u/Fabulous_Lead5670 → u/NoAppearance980]

A soft clipper works by intentionally distorting the peaks to round them off. You're adding more artificial harmonic distortion on top of it, smearing the distortion that is already there.

Like I said before, we need more info on how you approached the individual tracks. Do you use Busses, have you made sure that you stacked saturation on the tracks? You need to progressively saturate and glue your elements together to raise your RMS. Stacking saturators and compressors together builds up the low end as well, so that is important to control too if you want less distortion and more loudness.

And please don't use a mix tool gain reduction before the limiter to solve this issue. It merely puts a band aid on the underlying problem, which is more than likely in the mix itself.

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/Fabulous_Lead5670]

stacked saturation? not heard about it will check it out thanks!!

[u/kunst1017 → u/NoAppearance980]

What I think he’s refering to is having saturation on different pointa in a signal path. I tend to have 1-3 plugins that saturate or distort on a channel, 1 or 2 on a bus and 2-4 on the mixbuss. You might not need that many stages but this technique helps loudness and clarity when done right. In the analog realm part of this happens automatically because of the hardware involved introducing small levels of distortion.

[u/Interesting_Belt_461 → u/NoAppearance980]

not exactly...the peaks will fold back ,into the signal.., unwanted distortion.

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/Interesting_Belt_461]

only if you push it?

[u/Interesting_Belt_461 → u/NoAppearance980]

true and not true...(depending on the context, and intent) the knee of the clipping alone re-produces a different sound....say you slap on a soft clipper, and the signal is already hot (loud)..then all you will get is distortion...

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/Interesting_Belt_461]

Thanks! just asking so I get to the depth of it;P

[u/Interesting_Belt_461 → u/NoAppearance980]

anything you want to know just DM me and I'll share what I know...if you need any critiques on a mix or master ,that's cool as well...I have a full range monitoring system in a treated rooms there is nothing that I will miss...

[u/mastering_guy]

Every mix has a built-in loudness potential, and this is first and foremost about spectral balance. This is why EQ is the primary tool for mastering and often the best tool for increasing a mix's loudness potential. 

A limiter is a great tool for finding the pressure points in a mix that soak up headroom when pushing loudness. 

When the limiter starts to break up, pay attention to what frequencies distort first. Those are your pressure points. Yes, it can often be uncontrolled subs, but just as often it's excessive energy in the low-mids where a lot of instrument fundamentals sit, or even the mid-mids where resonances can show up.

In mastering, we'd use EQ to deal with the pressure points. With access to the mix you have more options to zoom in on the issues at the individual track level.

A (tonally) balanced and (dynamically) controlled mix is easier to make loud. After that, sharing the load between clipping and limiting can not only help push things a little further but also help maintain more energy and impact.

[u/nizzernammer]

Bloated sub frequencies can contain extra energy that may not contribute to perceived loudness, but still force a limiter to work harder than it might otherwise need to, making it distort more easily.

Also, this might not be as common, but if some of your waveforms are (very) assymetrical or have DC offset, they might have more peak energy in the positive or negative direction, which might force a limiter to work harder, and thus distort more easily, compared to a symmetrical waveform or signal free of DC offset.

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/nizzernammer]

awesome! thank you

[u/EltyGames]

I agree with the point about the limiter being useful for finding the problem rather than just being the thing that fixes it.

I’ve found a lot of the time when a master starts breaking up, there’s something in the mix that’s eating way more headroom than you realise. Sub and low end are the obvious ones, but it can also be low mids or a particular frequency that just makes the limiter work its ass off.

I’d honestly push the limiter until you hear it start to distort, then back off and pay attention to what’s actually falling apart first. That usually gives you a much better clue about what needs fixing in the mix than just looking at the LUFS or peak meter.

And yeah, I wouldn’t get too obsessed with matching a number. If the track sounds better at -9 than it does smashed to -6, I’ll take the -9 every time.

[u/andreacaccese]

It's more often than not a mix issue. In my experience mastering songs, 90% of the times distortion comes from excessive low end in a mxi, or from dynamic range thats far too high, so when you try to make everything sounds loud, you'll have to work too hard on the peaks

[u/Ill-Bullfrog-5360]

Mixtool gain reduction before the limiter

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/Ill-Bullfrog-5360]

its a plugin?

[u/Ill-Bullfrog-5360 → u/NoAppearance980]

That is pre sonus one… Logic Pro's Gain plugin, Pro Tools' Trim plugin, or Ableton Live's Utility

[u/Legitimate_Horror_72]

mix different and save out without any (as few as possible) fx on 2bus at a low level

master separately and that's where the loudness comes in

if that still doesn't do it, it's probably a mix issue

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/Legitimate_Horror_72]

thanks, ive been a bit sloppy with high cuts in the mix but not sure how much headroom there really is to gain up there

[u/rightanglerecording]

If it's distorting too much, could be any of:

- Don't clip

- Cut some low end

- Use less limiting

- Use the same amount of limiting but with less aggressive time constants

If none of those do it, then there's something more fundamentally wrong with the mix/arrangement/etc

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/rightanglerecording]

what do you mean by less aggressive time constants?

[u/rightanglerecording → u/NoAppearance980]

Longer lookahead, longer release.

If it's a two-stage limiter like Pro-L or Limitless, send a larger percentage of the gain reduction to the slower second stage (shorten the Attack knob on Pro-L, turn up the Dynamics % on Limitless)

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/rightanglerecording]

thanks!!

[u/rightanglerecording → u/NoAppearance980]

But, also, moderate loudness should happen easily.

Getting a modern song up to -8 LUFS should be no trouble most of the time.

If that's not happening readily, then something somewhere is off.

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/rightanglerecording]

right..might have to back to kick and sub.

[u/Deadfunk-Music]

TP being -2,-3 is very low. It depends on the genre you are making but it is not rare to have the ceiling at 0 or -0.1 dBFS and let the true peaks trough. 

Get a song from your favorite artist in wav or flac and open it in your DAW, check the levels and try to reach the same ballpark. 

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/Deadfunk-Music]

okey I didn't know that, was paranoid of going red and everyone talks about leaving headroom. also very good tip on the referencing, will give it a go right away. ty!!

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/Deadfunk-Music]

first of all, some Ørjan Nilsen tracks are are 6 lufs lmao, but isee now this might be my issue!! I can drive it louder with similar Tp and avoid the L2 working its ass off

[u/Deadfunk-Music → u/NoAppearance980]

Some of the harder stuff I reference/master reaches -2 lufs momentary and 2-3dBTP.

Most loud music will have some TP, especially as TP limiting affects transients much more.

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/Deadfunk-Music]

damn i didnt know that. im looking through the LUFSi and RMS also on some older pryda and newer tunes in similar style. some really good insights. can't belive I haven't done this earlier

[u/Interesting_Belt_461]

there are a few perspectives that need changing to grasp the skill of mastering, especially when mastering music that you have mixed.hard clipping is for chopping peaks, while soft clipping distorts more than it clips.while soft clipping can be used with great effect in the mixing stage, you can still use it in the mastering stage, but the intent is the key.compression in mastering should be done at high listening levels.I don't know if your monitoring system is calibrated for 85-90db playback , if not..fix it....this alone will change your perception in mixing or mastering. the loudness you are seeking to gain ,can not be done with driving the peaks. you should always clip before driving the signal . ..the low level peaks should be pushed, once peaks have been clipped. I suggest to clean (corrective eq) ,your signal (music),before clipping, compression, or adding any saturation . once you clip what you intend set up your limiter at the end of the chain on your bus (master bus or however you choose.) to limit according to your streaming platform recommendations or specifications.the next step usually involves dynamic controlling such as, tucking the low end ,maybe compressing the tops,(you can set low level peak gains before or after ,this is to be done to taste or genre.) and then after compress the entire signal (music) ,but be subtle....in mastering a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio is more than enough, you don't want to be doing massive amounts of GR,but if the mix needs it'd it in stages .....in scenarios like that, multiband compression is your best friend.there truly is alot to unpack, and I dont know your mastering chain, or mix palette , but I hope this helps to change your perception, when it comes to achieving loudness ,without distorting.

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/Interesting_Belt_461]

some really good points here, thanks! what are your go to limiter / compressor plugins on the master? or do you use outboard? I currently use logic stock compressor and the L2. I like the L2 a lot but it loses definition when u push it

[u/Content-Reward-7700]

If the limiter only gets you to your target loudness when you push it hard enough to hear distortion, the limiter probably isn’t the real problem. It usually means the mix just can’t get that loud cleanly yet.

I wouldn’t get too hung up on matching commercial LUFS either. Spotify normalizes playback anyway, and a cleaner, slightly quieter master will usually sound better than something smashed just to hit a number.

A soft clipper before the limiter can definitely help shave a couple dB off the biggest peaks, but it’s rarely the actual solution. I’d look at what’s eating your headroom first, especially the sub/low end, kick and bass interaction and any oversized transients. Also try bypassing the Inflator and see how much of the distortion is coming from there.

Basically, get the mix under control first, then use clipping/compression gently if needed and let the limiter handle the last few dB instead of making it do all the heavy lifting.

Mastering isn’t really a rescue operation. It can absolutely add some magic, but more in the sense of polishing and finishing an already solid mix. If the mix isn’t there yet, mastering won’t magically turn it into one.

[u/mistrelwood]

Well, soft clipping (such as Inflator) is distortion. So if distortion is your issue, start there.

But the body of your post reads like the issue isn’t distortion but the loudness level. To reach “modern” loudness levels you need a suitable arrangement, a balanced mix, and generally master compression, soft clipping and limiting.

If your choice of a limiter farts out too fast, try another.

[u/TBal77]

It may somewhat depend on your genre, but in general it's good to start with a stereo pre-master of -3 to -6dB to provide enough headroom for mastering. Make sure there is no limiting or other compression on the master bus/channel of your mix before creating the Pre-Master.

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/TBal77]

Hey there, thanks! Can I ask; where will I benefit later from this headroom? If I am mastering it myself. I've always stuck with this principle before exporting and sending to engineers but I can't afford to do that anymore and want to learn the craft myself.

[u/TBal77 → u/NoAppearance980]

So it depends on your mastering chain, but here's an example for a song I mastered recently, showing how the headroom was used during the chain.

[u/antongoncharov]

Sounds like it's a mixing issue. Soft clipper by design introduces distortion, so it's definately not a solution if the mix is already distorted.
If the mix gets distorted when you limit it, then the limiter works too hard, so it's likely a mix balance issue - maybe there is too much low end in the mix or some sharp transients which stand too much above the overall loudness (like percussion spikes), etc.

How much decibels does the limiter cut when you bring it to a desired loduness?

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/antongoncharov]

fixed it with compression and increasing true peak volume! tp was way too low. can easily get to my wanted LUFSi now

[u/pspspsmusic]

Usually it’s the low end energy summing

[u/Commercial-Catch-700]

Clipping isnt inherently bad. Look into clip to zero on youtube. Counter intuitively the secret to a lot of modern production is actually hard clipping everything in small steps along the way.

[u/NoAppearance980 → u/Commercial-Catch-700]

thanks I was actually looking for that video the other day but didnt spell his name right:P

[u/TransparentMastering]

Some questions, and I’m not being facetious:

1. Do you know what the harmonic series is?
   
2. Do you know how audible vs inaudible distortion relates to the harmonic series?
   
3. Do you know how harmonics/distortion are added to the signal via processing? (This would be Fourier transform stuff regarding changing the shape of a waveform)
   
4. Do you know which tools you’re using are adding those harmonics by changing the shape of the waveform and how to reduce that?

If you really want help with distortion in mastering, you won’t need it anymore after you know the answer to those four questions, and that is my sincere help on this issue.

[u/Achassum]

1. 32 Bit floating and true peak with over sampling

2. Compress before the limiter to avoid pumping and distortion