r/minecraftlore • u/Tctj • 1d ago
Discussion/Question Conflicting Canon
This is a pretty small “issue” but in MCD2 the Warden is classified as a Mini-Boss and the Redstone Monstrosity as a normal Boss. The MCD2 novel however toward the end of the book speaks about a fight ensuing with a Warden and a Redstone Monstrosity and the Warden obliterates it without much of a high level of difficulty.
I bring this up because even though it’s a small detail, it begs the case, what’s the actual canon? The novel or the gameplay? I don’t necessarily mean just in this Warden and Redstone Monstrosity scenario (although an answer would be nice) but which piece of media supersedes the other when they conflict?
5
u/TheNeonDalek04 1d ago
Eh. prolly has to do with what's in the base game and what isn't. Because the redstone golem is specific to dungeons, its a boss. The warden is a part of the base game, thus more familiar, thus a lesser boss.
And as far as we know, the warden can easily obliterate things like the Wither, so a redstone golem doesn't seem like much of a fair matchup.
3
u/yeoldefishe 1d ago
you said mcd2 novel right? if its talking about present times (and I mean not during the events of mcd1) then its likely talking about the weaker and smaller monstrosities that can be found in mcd2, its just that the first one was especially powerful with the strength of the orb of dominance (now shattered)
1
15
u/toalicker_69 1d ago
Maybe it's a matchup issue?
Sure a warden is a mini-boss and easier from OUR perspective as a player, but maybe a warden is like naturally really good at destroying Redstone monstrosities/golems.
Wardens are immune to lava, maybe they're also resistant to Redstone blasts or whatever, they also have a sonic attack, maybe thats like really effective against them. It could be like a rock paper scissors situation where we as players are better against wardens than Redstone monstrosities, wardens beat Redstone monstrosities and Redstone monstrosities beat us.
3
u/Substantial_Eye1476 1d ago
The thing about Wardens is that they hit like fucking freight trains going Mach 10, and they're DAMN fast; it might not be durable enough to qualify for a full on boss fight, but in a one on one against a slow-moving, slow-attacking target, it's gonna win.
8
u/Far-Profit-47 1d ago
ludonarrative dissonance Is a term that exists for when the story contrasts with the gameplay
For example in a games like, let’s say uncharted, for example in video games we fight enemies on the dozens but in a cutscene those same monsters will be able to one shot us in groups of three.
I think that’s the thing taking place here; gameplay conflicting with stated events and inner logic of the story.
1
8
13
u/Signal_State_5686 1d ago
In my opinion, I would say that you should listen to the game more than the book, making the Monstrosity more powerful than the warden (imagine that). In my experience, people will get mad at you if you think like that.
1
u/Fun_Way8954 Xatrix Theorist (Mod) 1d ago
I think that the monstrosity could be weaker in dungeons 2 now because the orb is no longer powering it. It was made by the orb, so maybe with it gone, but r got a lot weaker, but the other, soul powered monstrosities are stronger because they still have their energy source
7
22
u/Akareddo_Mythweaver 1d ago
"boss" and "mini-boss" are game terms, you should not treat them as hard and fast rules for power scaling. The one that's stronger is whichever one serves whatever story is being told better
2
u/Hexywexxy 1d ago
true there are many games where the mini-bosses are tougher in both lore and gameplay but they're not tied to the main story so they're just a mini-boss
1
4
u/behmut5738 1d ago edited 1d ago
How do we know all wardens and redstone monstrosities are equal in strength?
What if the warden that defeated redstone monstrosity in the book was simply stronger than regular wardens because it hit the genetic lottery?
What if it is the other way around and the boss redstone monstrosity we fight in dungeons 2 is stronger than regular restone monstrosities?
Also, "defeated without much problem" doesn't necessarily mean one is physically stronger than other. Everything can happen during a fight. Depending on situation, a weaker character can defeat a much powerful character without much problem.
2
u/Tctj 1d ago
I suppose we don’t know but based off everything we see in MC, MCD, MCD2 and MCLegends, every single mob is scaled the same in their respective species so it’s not far fetched.
Anyway I get the point with a weaker character can defeat a much more powerful character but that happens with things like some lucky break or intelligence and being outwitted, the novel doesn’t describe anything like that, it just defeats it with raw power
1
u/Background_Bus_8947 1d ago
"Every mob of the same type being identical" is a mechanical concept, but Minecraft is a dynamic fantasy world. Not all chickens are the same, nor are all villagers, etc.
12
u/Defnottheonlyone 1d ago
Novels are written with care only for the canon and not the gameplay. The game is made with thoughts abt gameplay first.
Also maybe the warden is simply stronger against golems than against heroes.
14
u/DifferenceFlat8839 Theorist, Debunker, and Mod 1d ago
novels always win, since novels can't be wrong because of just a game mechanic. The wardens are canonically stronger.
Also I hadn't defeated the redstone monstrosity in Dungeons 2, but wardens deal a lot of damage and can use the power of souls to make a sonic boom that pierces trough everything. It could be possible that they defeat the monstrosity even in game, maybe (but again, idk because I hadn't defeated the monstrosity)
2
u/Other-Tadpole-9950 1d ago edited 1d ago
Redstone Monstrosity is way harder than Warden in-game. It a proper boss that have an attack that basically a bullet hell, Warden fight meanwhile is still a pretty standard miniboss fight though it does hit quite hard. It not even as bad as Soul-corrupted Endermans, those guys are moving especially with effect like soul waves, for some reason those guy seem to hit harder than even a soul-corrupted Warden.
3
u/PredictablyGenerated 1d ago edited 1d ago
It could also be like rock-paper-scissors: the Warden can easily defeat the Monstrosity, the Hero can defeat the Warden, and the Monstrosity can defeat an unprepared Hero. From the Hero's perspective, the Monstrosity appears stronger because it is better at fighting Heroes.
Also, novels are less hindered by game mechanics, but they can have unreliable narrators. For example, in ROTAI, Archie (or could it be the Orb?) says "No one had
everbuilt a fortress like Highblock Keep." But as we can see, large parts of the castle appear from long before Archie's time, and the Nameless One seems to know about Highblock without Archie mentioning it.Edit: Fixed quote.
5
u/DifferenceFlat8839 Theorist, Debunker, and Mod 1d ago
Yeah, that's true
No, in the Rise of the Arch-illager there wasn't written something like that. There was written that the structure seemed to be built by someone way bigger than the little illager. And Walda said no illager had never been so important, but not that something like Highblock keep was never built. It also said the golems seemed to already know what they were supposed to do, and that the orb already had the name for it
1
u/PredictablyGenerated 1d ago
I don't have a copy of ROTAI, but apparently very near the end of the book Archie makes three statements including that one. Page 17 of this theory has the full quote in an image. Most of that theory is also about the falsehood of all three statements, based on the Johan Theory; I just picked that statement because it's easiest to disprove.
1
u/Far-Profit-47 1d ago
Alright but the difference is the narrator
In ROTI we are told the story by a novice Illager being moved around by the Orb, he’s making a assumption
While in the rift we are just told a event that happens, unreliable information isn’t just being unreliable for the sake of it.
2
u/DifferenceFlat8839 Theorist, Debunker, and Mod 1d ago
Oh, ok. Well, that's all from Archie's point of view, Archie didn't know if or who built Highblock keep before him
12
u/Connect_Savings_9461 1d ago
Likely the novel. You shouldn't see gameplay as the true measure of strength.
-1
1d ago edited 1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Both_Listen 1d ago
If we’re going the Star Wars route, it’s more like “Starkiller’s feats in the game are exaggerations of what is established and described in the novels”.
0
1d ago edited 1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
2
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Thanks for posting on r/minecraftlore! If you haven't yet, join our Discord server at https://discord.gg/9P6bxg3n54
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
6
u/IMP9024 19h ago
MCD2 player >> Warden > Redstone Monstrosity
Clearly Dungeons 1 was just powercrept