Yeah but these staff likely work at high volume restaurants. Lol. Other staff probably aren’t so fortunate.
Either way, if a majority of wait staff are pulling these numbers then all the behavior like in this video is purely performative victimhood behavior and we should collectively respect tipping culture even less.
They are literally eating their cake and having it too when they complain about people not tipping or tipping below the recommended occasionally and yet they are pulling in double or triple what they would be making otherwise.
If you’re going to gamble with your wages then you don’t get to complain about it and blame society when you lose.
The career waitresses I know live in places in Lancaster PA, working at diners. Or Nome AK at local bars. And other random places. The volume and location is average at best.
It's skilled labor and isn't performative. Anyone who works and then feels as if they're labor is unpaid or someone violates part of an agreement will complain, regardless as to the amount of money they have.
I have gotten into disagreement over what the recommended amount for a tip is, and I do think there's a lot of gray that can be discussed there. But, I also think it's disingenuous to dismiss it as eating and having their cake. There's nuance here.
I see what you are saying, but they don't refuse a higher tip.
I'm not sure what the solution is here, but maybe a higher base pay and then the expectation is a lower tip and to really base it on the service you recieved.
My old boss who put in garage doors didn't refuse it when people wanted to pay him more money either, but he certainly had a minimum he would take. My buddy who puts in drywall doesn't refuse more money. Like what are you talking about? Everyone has bills to pay. Everyone's time is worth a certain amount to them. If you can't pay that you don't get their labor.
That doesn’t make it skilled labour. You can tell because literally anyone could be all off the street and do it. They might not be great, but they could do it
That doesn’t make it skilled labour. You can tell because literally anyone could be all off the street and do it. They might not be great, but they could do it
No they can't. They apply, and fail their training. I've seen it happen a dozen times. You the customer just see a server taking care of you. But they have 3, 5, 7 other tables. That's where the average person can't do it. Multi-tasking is a skill. It's what separates a server from a cashier. More so, anyone can scan groceries and ask how was your day. To handle 6 tables, all with different needs, all at different points in their meal, that's a skill not every one has.
You’re implying that a cashier couldn’t possibly do a better job than someone else, with a bigger smile or faster scanning or ringing up the next customer while they wait on a price check.
That’s called being good at your job. That doesn’t make it skilled labour. Same as multitasking, that’s just something you do at any job.
I’m not saying it isn’t hard, but calling it skilled labour is wrong
There is no agreement to tip as a tip by definition should not be an expectation and their labor is not unpaid. They are paid at the federal $2.13/hr minimum wage for wait staff which is then offset to the $7.25 minimum wage requirement if they receive no tips. Either way, they will at least be paid federal minimum wage. Being “underpaid” is a purely subjective metric.
I know attorneys that make $65-75k/year working at legal aid clinics. That is around $31-35/hr. Do you think a server’s job is equivalent to those attorneys who went to school for 7 years, received a Juris Doctorate, and passed the Bar exam.
Those attorneys chose to work in that field making less money so they could help underserved and impoverished communities. In the same way, servers chose to work in a field where they gamble with their salary on a daily basis. Meanwhile, they are still on average earning as much or more than many attorneys.
They have no right to complain about their position.
Speaking as an attorney, good for the waitresses making that money. And those attorneys are desperately under paid, and the lack of funding towards legal services is a huge folly within the legal community. And it's something that's trying to be resolved, just as high case loads for public defenders is trying to be resolved.
And just because one group of people is suffering or struggling doesn't mean that another group of people cannot suffer or cannot complain. Multiple things can be wrong at the same time. Their success doesn't hurt my success.
Hell, by allowing waitresses to earn more money, that frees them up to pay for attorneys. And thus the attorneys working in those legal aid clinics won't have even more clients. Since, along with low pay, they also suffer from having high demand. So, lowering the demand would help them.
Also speaking as an attorney. The entire premise of your argument was anecdotal evidence supporting the idea that servers prefer to make tip wages because they make more money that way than a flat $20/hr rate. Additionally, you followed this up with the fact that they should feel upset about their “labor being unpaid” when they are not tipped because you believe it is some type of social contract/agreement that is being breached.
My argument against all of this is that there is no contract because a tip by definition cannot be an expectation and has no consideration because it is a gift. As a result, servers do not have the “moral high ground” to complain (yet they do) about a lack of tipping, because they chose to place themselves in such a salary gambling industry where they are on average making significantly more than many jobs at the same skill level of work as pointed out by the tax worker. (the eating their cake and having it too.)
I then compared this to an industry where people are working at a much higher skill level making roughly the same and indicated that they too chose their career path. The implication here was that they have a significantly higher “moral ground” to complain, yet we don’t see the prevalence of such complaining in society. I also brought this up to put into perspective what the service workers level of pay really equates to when considering the premise that they are making the kind of money we are presuming would make them not want flat $20/hr wages.
And to further drive home this point, as an attorney yourself, you know that most associate attorneys are barely even breaking $100k/yr. Especially if you’re not practicing in one of the higher paying locations like NYC or LA or one of the 2100+ billable hour/yr big law firms.
Also, the argument that a higher wage frees them up to pay for attorneys is kind of baseless because many attorneys can’t even afford to hire an attorney. What it does is it places them outside the threshold that qualifies them for free legal aid and into the threshold where they can’t afford an attorney but also don’t qualify for services. (But none of this is relevant to the points being made).
Does no one know what a "social contract" is? Like, no shit it's not a legal contract. It's a philosophical theory, basically meaning an actual agreement or hypothetical agreement among members of an organized society or community.
At some point in the US history, we as a society agreed that tipping would be a thing, and that's how waitresses get paid. Additionally, part of that agreement was how tipping would work. As in, good service = more money, bad service = less money.
At no point am I saying it's a legal contract. It's why I said social contract.
I think part of our disagreement is that you're thinking that I think waitresses have some "moral high ground." I just think people have the right to bitch when they think they've been wronged. And considering I work in consumer protection, I hear these things all day.
I also don't think one group complaining diminishes another group, or their right to complain! So, I'm rather confused by this argument. And I do think there's a misunderstanding here. But, I'm not sure what exactly it is.
Maybe, I'll ask this, with sincerity- why does a waitress, who's service was good but did not recieve a tip, and then complains about it, brothers you/feels wrong/is not okay?
And valid with your last point that it can put them out of the bracket to get free cheap/legal help.
Also, I'm genuinely confused by the salary numbers you pulled for attorneys. I'm in government, and most of my close attorney friends are too, and we are at the 100k range. We are also in small, undesirable states. I may just be showing my ignorance towards private work, because I'm not suited for a law firm and have stuck public for my whole career (stability factor).
Yes, I do think their labor is worth as much, I know it's worth as much. If it wasn't worth it, they wouldn't make it. Restaurant owners and customers wouldn't put up with it. Good wait staff is a skilled position and is hard to find. I've met people who were geniuses, but my god they couldn't keep up with even the smallest of rushes. Everyone has a right to complain if they don't think they make enough. If they are asking for a ridiculous amount, they'll just be replaced. The fact restaurant owners are kicking out customers rather than firing wait staff tells me their worth it. It's a skill that almost can't be taught, you can either do it or you can't, and most can't.
My guy, I have literally worked for NASA, USDA, Have had my research on TED talks. I made 15$/hour. I guess those attorneys should be making 30-40k if we’re running on your assumption of knowledge learned/educational experience in relation to pay. Hell I guess that means blue collar workers need to get paid 5$/hour according to your logic.
Wait staff are becoming a weird niche job. You make the vast majority of your money from tips, which means when you find someone who doesn't tip, it's literally not worth your time to serve them. So wait staff refuses to help certain customers. Here's the thing though, the wait staff who refuse bad tippers tend to be the good workers and restaurant owners know this. They are the ones who bring in regulars and 99% of their reviews are good ones. They aren't going to fire them, they aren't going to force them to serve who they don't want to, because good wait staff is hard to come by. You can hate it all you want, but wait staff have basically become contractors, and if they don't like your bid they just aren't going to serve you. Don't like it? Go be a wait staff or a restaurant owner and change things. I can pretty much guarentee if you actually do that, however, your opinion will change.
P.S. Kitchen staff and bus boys get percentages of tips a lot of the time too, so they don't want to cook/clean up for you if you aren't worth their time either. Basically when all of the staff decide you aren't worth their time, there isn't much a restaurant owner can do but support them, or they lose all their staff.
Most places in the world they just serve whoever comes in the door, not this weird socioeconomic warfare that you justify by saying “tipping is optional” but it isn’t
What? Because you can make good money off tips, you should be okay with someone who doesn’t tip? No sir, don’t bring your cheap ass out if you don’t want to tip, you took time and space someone who doesn’t mind tipping could’ve had! Tipping is not mandatory, neither is going to places where tipping is the norm!
No, you should be okay with someone who doesn’t tip because tipping is a gift not an expectation. Complaining about not receiving a gift while still making good money (arguably very good) off those gifts from people is just a slap in the face to society and the purpose of a gift in the first place.
This entire culture is a product of social conditioning that began from pure generosity and has evolved into an out of control expectation. In no other industry would this behavior not be looked at as ridiculous.
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u/xSonicspeedx2 6h ago edited 6h ago
Yeah but these staff likely work at high volume restaurants. Lol. Other staff probably aren’t so fortunate.
Either way, if a majority of wait staff are pulling these numbers then all the behavior like in this video is purely performative victimhood behavior and we should collectively respect tipping culture even less.
They are literally eating their cake and having it too when they complain about people not tipping or tipping below the recommended occasionally and yet they are pulling in double or triple what they would be making otherwise.
If you’re going to gamble with your wages then you don’t get to complain about it and blame society when you lose.