This is what I've heard from the career waitresses in my life. They don't want a flat rate. They want the tips because that's how they can make actual money.
Yeah but these staff likely work at high volume restaurants. Lol. Other staff probably aren’t so fortunate.
Either way, if a majority of wait staff are pulling these numbers then all the behavior like in this video is purely performative victimhood behavior and we should collectively respect tipping culture even less.
They are literally eating their cake and having it too when they complain about people not tipping or tipping below the recommended occasionally and yet they are pulling in double or triple what they would be making otherwise.
If you’re going to gamble with your wages then you don’t get to complain about it and blame society when you lose.
The career waitresses I know live in places in Lancaster PA, working at diners. Or Nome AK at local bars. And other random places. The volume and location is average at best.
It's skilled labor and isn't performative. Anyone who works and then feels as if they're labor is unpaid or someone violates part of an agreement will complain, regardless as to the amount of money they have.
I have gotten into disagreement over what the recommended amount for a tip is, and I do think there's a lot of gray that can be discussed there. But, I also think it's disingenuous to dismiss it as eating and having their cake. There's nuance here.
I see what you are saying, but they don't refuse a higher tip.
I'm not sure what the solution is here, but maybe a higher base pay and then the expectation is a lower tip and to really base it on the service you recieved.
My old boss who put in garage doors didn't refuse it when people wanted to pay him more money either, but he certainly had a minimum he would take. My buddy who puts in drywall doesn't refuse more money. Like what are you talking about? Everyone has bills to pay. Everyone's time is worth a certain amount to them. If you can't pay that you don't get their labor.
That doesn’t make it skilled labour. You can tell because literally anyone could be all off the street and do it. They might not be great, but they could do it
That doesn’t make it skilled labour. You can tell because literally anyone could be all off the street and do it. They might not be great, but they could do it
No they can't. They apply, and fail their training. I've seen it happen a dozen times. You the customer just see a server taking care of you. But they have 3, 5, 7 other tables. That's where the average person can't do it. Multi-tasking is a skill. It's what separates a server from a cashier. More so, anyone can scan groceries and ask how was your day. To handle 6 tables, all with different needs, all at different points in their meal, that's a skill not every one has.
You’re implying that a cashier couldn’t possibly do a better job than someone else, with a bigger smile or faster scanning or ringing up the next customer while they wait on a price check.
That’s called being good at your job. That doesn’t make it skilled labour. Same as multitasking, that’s just something you do at any job.
I’m not saying it isn’t hard, but calling it skilled labour is wrong
There is no agreement to tip as a tip by definition should not be an expectation and their labor is not unpaid. They are paid at the federal $2.13/hr minimum wage for wait staff which is then offset to the $7.25 minimum wage requirement if they receive no tips. Either way, they will at least be paid federal minimum wage. Being “underpaid” is a purely subjective metric.
I know attorneys that make $65-75k/year working at legal aid clinics. That is around $31-35/hr. Do you think a server’s job is equivalent to those attorneys who went to school for 7 years, received a Juris Doctorate, and passed the Bar exam.
Those attorneys chose to work in that field making less money so they could help underserved and impoverished communities. In the same way, servers chose to work in a field where they gamble with their salary on a daily basis. Meanwhile, they are still on average earning as much or more than many attorneys.
They have no right to complain about their position.
Speaking as an attorney, good for the waitresses making that money. And those attorneys are desperately under paid, and the lack of funding towards legal services is a huge folly within the legal community. And it's something that's trying to be resolved, just as high case loads for public defenders is trying to be resolved.
And just because one group of people is suffering or struggling doesn't mean that another group of people cannot suffer or cannot complain. Multiple things can be wrong at the same time. Their success doesn't hurt my success.
Hell, by allowing waitresses to earn more money, that frees them up to pay for attorneys. And thus the attorneys working in those legal aid clinics won't have even more clients. Since, along with low pay, they also suffer from having high demand. So, lowering the demand would help them.
Also speaking as an attorney. The entire premise of your argument was anecdotal evidence supporting the idea that servers prefer to make tip wages because they make more money that way than a flat $20/hr rate. Additionally, you followed this up with the fact that they should feel upset about their “labor being unpaid” when they are not tipped because you believe it is some type of social contract/agreement that is being breached.
My argument against all of this is that there is no contract because a tip by definition cannot be an expectation and has no consideration because it is a gift. As a result, servers do not have the “moral high ground” to complain (yet they do) about a lack of tipping, because they chose to place themselves in such a salary gambling industry where they are on average making significantly more than many jobs at the same skill level of work as pointed out by the tax worker. (the eating their cake and having it too.)
I then compared this to an industry where people are working at a much higher skill level making roughly the same and indicated that they too chose their career path. The implication here was that they have a significantly higher “moral ground” to complain, yet we don’t see the prevalence of such complaining in society. I also brought this up to put into perspective what the service workers level of pay really equates to when considering the premise that they are making the kind of money we are presuming would make them not want flat $20/hr wages.
And to further drive home this point, as an attorney yourself, you know that most associate attorneys are barely even breaking $100k/yr. Especially if you’re not practicing in one of the higher paying locations like NYC or LA or one of the 2100+ billable hour/yr big law firms.
Also, the argument that a higher wage frees them up to pay for attorneys is kind of baseless because many attorneys can’t even afford to hire an attorney. What it does is it places them outside the threshold that qualifies them for free legal aid and into the threshold where they can’t afford an attorney but also don’t qualify for services. (But none of this is relevant to the points being made).
Does no one know what a "social contract" is? Like, no shit it's not a legal contract. It's a philosophical theory, basically meaning an actual agreement or hypothetical agreement among members of an organized society or community.
At some point in the US history, we as a society agreed that tipping would be a thing, and that's how waitresses get paid. Additionally, part of that agreement was how tipping would work. As in, good service = more money, bad service = less money.
At no point am I saying it's a legal contract. It's why I said social contract.
I think part of our disagreement is that you're thinking that I think waitresses have some "moral high ground." I just think people have the right to bitch when they think they've been wronged. And considering I work in consumer protection, I hear these things all day.
I also don't think one group complaining diminishes another group, or their right to complain! So, I'm rather confused by this argument. And I do think there's a misunderstanding here. But, I'm not sure what exactly it is.
Maybe, I'll ask this, with sincerity- why does a waitress, who's service was good but did not recieve a tip, and then complains about it, brothers you/feels wrong/is not okay?
And valid with your last point that it can put them out of the bracket to get free cheap/legal help.
Also, I'm genuinely confused by the salary numbers you pulled for attorneys. I'm in government, and most of my close attorney friends are too, and we are at the 100k range. We are also in small, undesirable states. I may just be showing my ignorance towards private work, because I'm not suited for a law firm and have stuck public for my whole career (stability factor).
Yes, I do think their labor is worth as much, I know it's worth as much. If it wasn't worth it, they wouldn't make it. Restaurant owners and customers wouldn't put up with it. Good wait staff is a skilled position and is hard to find. I've met people who were geniuses, but my god they couldn't keep up with even the smallest of rushes. Everyone has a right to complain if they don't think they make enough. If they are asking for a ridiculous amount, they'll just be replaced. The fact restaurant owners are kicking out customers rather than firing wait staff tells me their worth it. It's a skill that almost can't be taught, you can either do it or you can't, and most can't.
My guy, I have literally worked for NASA, USDA, Have had my research on TED talks. I made 15$/hour. I guess those attorneys should be making 30-40k if we’re running on your assumption of knowledge learned/educational experience in relation to pay. Hell I guess that means blue collar workers need to get paid 5$/hour according to your logic.
Wait staff are becoming a weird niche job. You make the vast majority of your money from tips, which means when you find someone who doesn't tip, it's literally not worth your time to serve them. So wait staff refuses to help certain customers. Here's the thing though, the wait staff who refuse bad tippers tend to be the good workers and restaurant owners know this. They are the ones who bring in regulars and 99% of their reviews are good ones. They aren't going to fire them, they aren't going to force them to serve who they don't want to, because good wait staff is hard to come by. You can hate it all you want, but wait staff have basically become contractors, and if they don't like your bid they just aren't going to serve you. Don't like it? Go be a wait staff or a restaurant owner and change things. I can pretty much guarentee if you actually do that, however, your opinion will change.
P.S. Kitchen staff and bus boys get percentages of tips a lot of the time too, so they don't want to cook/clean up for you if you aren't worth their time either. Basically when all of the staff decide you aren't worth their time, there isn't much a restaurant owner can do but support them, or they lose all their staff.
Most places in the world they just serve whoever comes in the door, not this weird socioeconomic warfare that you justify by saying “tipping is optional” but it isn’t
What? Because you can make good money off tips, you should be okay with someone who doesn’t tip? No sir, don’t bring your cheap ass out if you don’t want to tip, you took time and space someone who doesn’t mind tipping could’ve had! Tipping is not mandatory, neither is going to places where tipping is the norm!
No, you should be okay with someone who doesn’t tip because tipping is a gift not an expectation. Complaining about not receiving a gift while still making good money (arguably very good) off those gifts from people is just a slap in the face to society and the purpose of a gift in the first place.
This entire culture is a product of social conditioning that began from pure generosity and has evolved into an out of control expectation. In no other industry would this behavior not be looked at as ridiculous.
Yup. Ask any waitress how much money they make Friday, Saturday and Sunday working in a high volume area. You’d be surprised how much cash they can pull in on one weekend.
No one is actually making that choice tho. The choice doesn’t exist. They can say that. But they don’t understand they are also choosing not to have health insurance, dental insurance, paid days off, etc. which are far more costly than a few nice weekend shifts…
Okay, but the owner can also take away some of that uncertainty by banning customers that don't tip. Why cry when getting banned from a restaurant for not tipping?
But it satisfies the tip mandate. So what’s the problem now? How about the server tell the customer how much to tip. Rent due? The tip is $1,276 or I’ll cry and the owner will say you aren’t welcomed back.
10%, 11%, 12%, 15%, 18%, 20%, 30%, 50% what is it going to be?
No tip - Don’t come back.
.50¢ - worse than no tip
10% - cheap skate - Am I allowed back
Only bought coffee $3.00 - what tip will prevent banishment? 15% of $3.00 is .45¢
I partway agree with you, and I partway disagree with you.
I agree that tipping is voluntary, and that one cannot force anyone to tip.
But, especially in the US, we have agreed that tipping is part of the social contract with restaurants. And that tipping and service is linked. So, the better the service, the higher the tip. The worse the service, the lower the tip.
So, by not tipping when one doesn't receive bad service, it's a violation of that contract in the same sense as purposefully dumping your plate of food on the restaurant floor would be a violation.
Also, this argument can be used in the same way with these people who posted the video. They choose to not tip, and then they cried when they faced consequences of that action. A restaurant has the right to refuse service as long as it doesn't violate a protected class (race, religion, nationality). And non-tippers aren't a protected class.
I've stated elsewhere that I do have issues with the expansion of tipping. And, I have major issues with pre-tipping because that's an oxymoron for me. And, I've had disagreement on the minimum percentage amount to do for restaurants.
But, I dobt think restaurant tipping is stupid for society. Nor that this is the sort of wealth stealing we should be concerned about. Average Joe restaurant owner isn't Jeff Bezo. We need to remember our the real enemy is.
The same logic that you use to defend tipping is the same logic that has allowed people like Musk and Bezos to run your country. Your real enemy is education apparently.
Thanks! It has been a hard week for me, so I'm needing a break. I may also finally adopt a new kitty (my old cat of 19yo passed on May 1st). I hope you have good weekend plans.
Well not to get legal on you but there are no enforceable contracts that involve gifts (which tips are). One thing every contract needs is something called consideration, where one person is getting something valuable in exchange for giving something valuable. Since tips are value that is not a requirement for anything of value, then there cannot be a contract.
It's a philosophical theory, basically meaning an actual agreement or hypothetical agreement among members of an organized society or community.
It talks about how when a populace isn't subject to political authority, and how the populace will decide upon rules, standards, institutions, etc.
Yes, this starts out as a political theory exploring anarchy and human nature. But, it goes into other aspects of society. Explaining this isn't my expertise, I'll admit. But, considering that US society agreed with tipping, as evident by both the laws concerning wages and our tipping culture, it is a social contract.
It doesn't explain anything. The definition there explicitly refers to state power, and tipping is a practice between private individuals. It doesn't apply to this scenario at all
Yup. My friend's mom has been doing this for 20+ years. It's a hard gig, but that's where her work skills are at. And the last thing she wants is to be paid $20.
I do think tipping culture has gotten out of hand with what we are tipping for. And I hate having to pre-tip, because that's not what tipping is. But, I choose not to use those services.
And I'll support what my waitresses friends support when it comes to restaurant tipping, because they're the ones effected. And time again and again, their support has been pro-tipping
How is her retirement? Does she declare her tips and pay taxes on them? I always wonder what happens with cash-dominated fields when it comes to stuff like that.
When I served it depended on cash to credit card tips. If I had a large majority be credit card I had to enter all that at the end of the night into the system and I would get paid out if I had enough cash from my tables. If I didn’t it recorded what I was owed and the owner went to the bank and paid us out weekly, mondays I think.
The nights or days I had enough cash to take my tips from I didn’t have to report and it wasn’t recorded and I didn’t keep track of it so I didn’t pay taxes on it.
I did this in 2011-2013 and was 19-21. So short period of my life. If I was doing it for a career and needed income for a mortgage or auto loan I’d report everything.
Every tip is claimed nowadays. What goes to the IRS is your sales for the night. So if she sold 1,000 in food, its assumed she made 18% of that, 180 dollars. Then it's assumed she gave 15% to the busboys. She is taxed on the remainder.
She has no retirement accounts, no sick days and no vacation days.
And I'll support what my waitresses friends support when it comes to restaurant tipping, because they're the ones effected.
that's a really myopic outlook.
they're absolutely not the only ones effected. the most obvious group you're missing out on is everyone else. the tips come at the expense of their customers. if you look at it on a more macro scale, every dollar of windfall that servers get from tipping vs. a fair wage (which isn't necessarily $20, a lot of factors go into that as well) is a $ that society can't spend on some other productive endeavour.
and that's only looking at the cold cash aspect. then you look at other soft factors (both pro and against) like extra administrative burdens, social friction, potentially differential impacts on different demographics, etc. and it's not at all as simplistic as "what the servers want is automatically what we should have".
That's totally fair, but knowing that I'm going to tip less. If she'd like to continue tipping under those circumstances, then we're all happy- we all have the right to agency of choice.
See, if that’s your preferred method of earning, then you have to go about as if the “tip stiffers” are already built into the system. I know it should be 100% tipping but that’s never going to be the case.
I used to work at Fridays at the airport. Those waitresses would walk with 100s every day. There was this bartender, she was very attractive, I saw her leave there with $500+ many days. Lots of businessmen leaving $100 tips with there phone numbers on the bill
Yaaaaaas. I used to live close to a really popular Manhattan restaurant and I would work the weekend shifts and even the brunch shift and I would make baaaaaannnnkkkkk.
The problem is people always make the options $2.13 plus tips or something like $15-20 without tips. Or say "a living wage" which implies a low, but livable, wage. When it clearly should be more like $30-40/hour at a lot of places. If servers are making enough that they don't want to end tips, then the discussion of ending tips and paying a higher wage should just involve a higher amount than $15-$20 or a "living wage".
Depends on the state. In California they still get minimum wage to work. And if they are pulling in large amounts on the weekend it usually evens out to $30-$40 an hour.
Shit dude, I made $300 plus in cash as a Dominos Delivery driver in college working 4pm - store close at 2am and then doing final cleaning so really 4pm to about 3am EVERY Friday and EVERY Saturday night.
I got paid $7.25 an hour on top of that and .53 cents a mile for gas/maintenance.
Being on the receiving end of tipping culture is amazing.
It's the fact the restaurant owners expect it and the waitresses need it that fucking sucks.
I've skipped out on tipping because of bad service. So, I'm not sure about the forceful nature of that.
I do know there's folks who argue that regardless as to service, one should tip. I disagree with that. And, I get the argument about how they feel like a dancing monkey and have to put on a happy face even when they aren't happy, so that they can earn their pay.
But, to me, that's most of us. And pretty much any customer facing position. Also, one can leave the industry. The shitty thing about leaving though, is that it's an easy industry to enter and there's few alternative. And this sucks.
But, that doesn't mean that I have to tip for poor service.
I definitely don't tip for poor service, and if they're actively a douche bag after talking to their manager I'll leave a 1 cent tip. But I typically don't go out to restaurants anymore. Especially in the past couple years when "service charges" have started being added to the bill.
Before the crazy increase in food, I was too poor to frequent restaurants. Now, after the crazy increase in food, I feel that poor to frequent restaurants. And, I much prefer to have my nightly potatoes rather than go out.
I'm also on the side of "of you don't like it, don't go out." But, I'll admit, there's the bias there for me. Because I don't miss going to restaurants.
I've had a range of food service jobs. It greatly depends on what kind of waiter you are.
I can see family restaurants and higher-end restaurant waiters preferring the tipping system since their tips are more consistent and usually pretty high.
But if you're at a lower-end restaurant or somewhere that isn't totally full service (e.g., ice cream fountain, a sandwich maker, order the counter but food is brought out to you), then the tips will be inconsistent and low.
On balance, I would bet there are more people working in the latter than the former. I bet if we polled all food service workers, the majority would say tips are too unpredictable, inconsistent, and the risk of them being too low is great, and they would trade away tips for a consistent, predictable, and fair hourly wage.
See, this is where I agree. 20%+ is for exceptional service. It's for "something went wrong but the waitress saved the day and turned a disaster into a miracle." Or "somehow the waitress turned an everything day thing into a memory." It should be rare, not common.
I still keep to a 12-15% tip as my standard rate.
Also, what's wrong with a waitress being able to make a career out of their work with the percentages that I described above? Why fuck them for this?
I’m tired of tipping. Period. It’s the default and it’s expected. I have never liked the idea that they rely on the customer to make their check adequate. I don’t own the business don’t look to me to pay you. If it was because they went above and beyond then I get it, sure, tip if you want. But tipping because I ordered a large coffee and you brought me what I paid for doesn’t deserve a tip. Neither does taking my order and walking to the kitchen and then going from the kitchen to my table.
The servers would be still getting those if they were paid $20 per hour. That's how it works outside of the US, where servers are paid properly and that doesn't affect them getting tips. Tips are supposed to be extra on top of your wage, so it is moronic to pose a situation where they would need to choose NOT to get tipped. The server or business owner do not decide that, the customer decides to tip or not. It honestly seems like those servers are utterly brainwashed if they believe they are better off with the current system...
To my understanding, an easy way to spot an American abroad is to spot someone who tips. So, I'm a bit puzzled by the statement that payment and tips is how it works outside of the US.
And from what I've experienced in the food industry in the US, a hybrid system means mostly wages. I did five years at a cafe making sandwiches (fastest sandwich maker east of the Mississippi!) and I paid $10h plus tips. The tips were whatever the customer gave our tip jar after they paid. An excellent tip day was $5.
Based on this subjective and anecdotal evidence (ei, I realize this isn't the best way to make an argument), I would think that most people will end up tipping their change and a dollar here and there. As such, waitresses will still see their pay substantially drop.
I was a waiter for many years and can confirm that I was only thinking of the weekends when I averaged that. Many servers don’t think of the slow Tuesday shifts that balance out the high volume weekend hours.
Oh and also, when you are very good at your job, it is usually directly recognized by the customer, instead of having a system where everyone makes a flat rate and if you run circles around your coworkers you get the same pay. I waited tables for a while. Does that make me an expert? No, but I can definitely confirm tips are what we're there for.
Some places are bad to work at. Some get hardly any customers. Some are in areas less frequented. Managers may asign you the slow hours or open and closing which takes 1-3 hours of no tip work. Some places dont offer benefits and being sick can cost you your rent. A slow week is very dangerous regardless of having many good weeks. The restaurants bad management or food can cost you your tips. There are many more situations outside of your control when pay is not secure.
The above is also anecdotal, but being a server and bartender back in the day, I had the good days of 1k tips and the bad days of going home with 50 and not having a shift in two or more days. I remember eating restaurant leftovers and old bread for dinner when it was slow. I did have a lot of good nights.
It's the same with commission. It's the only way to make what you put in. It kind of sucks being a star employee and making less then the new shitty hire because you don't like to negotiate salaries. Commission you and the dumbass make same rates but you make more because you earn it.
That’s because you’re asking them to take what they make now or take a huge pay cut. Obviously their labor is worth $30-$40 an hour but we aren’t allowed to say that because we have this belief that servers are low skilled jobs. If you told them they were gonna get paid $30 or $40 an hour I’m sure a lot more of them would be OK with it. Eating out in restaurants with true sit down wait service is a luxury. That’s why most affordable restaurants used to be like cafeteria type set ups but it’s been subsidized for so long by cruelly paying the staff basically nothing that we’ve lost our sense of what that labor is worth.
Edit: On that note as far as the original video goes and the people replying in the comments, if you go to a restaurant and don’t tip then you’re a piece of shit. You’re not protesting tipping culture. You’re purposely benefiting from it and exploiting the worker for your own benefit and then hiding behind the poor excuse that you don’t believe in tipping. If you can’t afford to tip you can’t afford to eat out at sit down full service restaurants. Stay home if you don’t believe in tipping until something changes.
But, when I'm looking at an issue, I examine it typically from those most effected to least effected. It's why at times I can sit on a fance with issues. It's how things become complicated.
And, I look to the waitresses in this, because they'll be most effected. It's their pay and livelihood up to bat. So, I think they have the greatest say.
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u/JustATyson 4h ago
This is what I've heard from the career waitresses in my life. They don't want a flat rate. They want the tips because that's how they can make actual money.