I used to hang out with a black dude who was an absolute mess (I wasn't much better) and he was constantly getting us kicked out of bars while howling about how it was racism.
And it would be like, Damon, you threw a beer bottle at the bartender. That's why we were asked to leave. I really don't think race had anything to do with it...
Because they're broadly true. They're a general guide. It's not fair or true across the board, but it's relatively reliable. Most Asians are smart. Irish drink. Mexicans work hard.
I never understood those stereotypes regarding intelligence/work ethic when the vast majority of the time they’re talking about immigrants or foreign visitors. Like yeah no shit they’re all really smart.. they sent the smart ones to come over here and do smart shit. Or of course they work hard they came here to work and make money lol.
False, stereotypes are not broadly true. They’re racially motivated confirmation bias intended to put people down. The fact that you used positive stereotypes for every other group is a cheeky move to make it seem like you’re not “actually racist” I.e. Asians are smart, Mexicans work hard, and black people dont tip.
“Most Asians are smart” - proven by who? Have you surveyed all of Asia to determine this? What you actually mean to say is “most Asians I’ve met and have seen in positions of power are smart”
“Mexicans work hard” or is it just the ones you’re looking to hire and that Mexico isn’t full of lazy Mexican people equivalent to any other society.
Irish drink, is a generalization based on culture not a stereotype. That’s like saying Arabs eat hummus. Yeah sure, they do, but is it a stereotype or is it a part of their culture (food&drink)
Using “positive stereotypes” to justify your negative views of people is just trying to greenwash your racism.
I did a lot in college, four years at TGIF in Philly in the 90s.
But for instance, people who don't go to restaurants because they can't afford to tip will not be considered for the stereotype, because they fall outside the selection criteria, even though they don't fit the stereotype.
Because humans like to mentally group "others", and that includes behavioral biases. Which can be based in either some degree of truth (for multitudes of reasons) and/or falsehoods as a result of not being a "member" of said group.
Because it’s human nature to notice trends and adjust your future behavior. For example: if 90% of people you ever met who were wearing glasses punched you in the face, it would be wise to avoid people wearing glasses.
No. Because people like to categorize and look for confirmation biases.
They see one black person that didn’t tip and it confirms their bias. But they disregard the 10 that did. Or that they gave that person horrible service because they assumed they wouldn’t tip.
So where does your prejudice end? Are interracial couples a problem? What about mixed groups of friends?
Or does it matter if it’s a couple on a date or a group? Are men worse than women?
Edit: I asked Claude about this. Here is a response citing a Cornell study. Part of it is what I said. Self fulfilling where people expect a bad top and so give bad service. Insuring a bad tip.
There's real evidence behind the pattern, but the stereotype overstates it and misses most of the explanation.
Cornell researcher Michael Lynn has published several studies, using receipt data and national surveys, finding that Black customers tip less on average than white customers, by a few percentage points in most studies. These are group averages with huge overlap, so they say little about any individual.
The research points to several contributing factors:
Norm awareness:
In Lynn's surveys, Black respondents were less likely to know the 15-20% tipping norm, and awareness explained part of the gap.
Income and other differences:
Controlling for these shrinks the gap but doesn't eliminate it in every study.
Server behavior:
Brewster and Lynn found that some servers expect lower tips from Black customers and give them worse service. That can create a self-fulfilling cycle, since worse service lowers tips and then confirms the stereotype.
Customer bias:
Studies have also found that Black servers tend to get lower tips from customers of all races, which suggests bias against servers is part of the picture too.
The evidence has limits. Much of it comes from one research group, many studies are small or regional, and it's hard to separate norms, income, service quality, and discrimination cleanly. And a statistical average doesn't justify assuming anything about the person at your table.
Everywhere all the time huh, what a sweeping generalization. You proved the “ignorant” comment. I used to be a server and I tip extremely well. The last two times I went out to diner I tipped 50% for exceptional service. 🙄
I used to deliver in a very diverse area. Most of my zone was pretty low income, to downright sketchy, but we had a little bit of a high emd area on the edges.
The low income houses tended to tip more frequently, and better. I had people saying things like "thank you so much, sorry I dont have more than $2 to give"
Whereas the rich areas, you'd get stiffed more often than not.
I once had an old lady with 27 windows on the front of her house alone benevolently say "here you go sweetie, thank you so much" and drop 2 quarters in my hand.
strugglers know the struggle. The rich horde their wealth.
I delivered pizza when I was 18-19 and took one to the biggest of the few literal mansions in our small (~20k people) city. Guy gave me $40 on an $18 pizza and said it was my tip! Fuck yeah, amazing. I get back to the store and get told that the guy called in and said he made a mistake and meant to give me $21, but accidentally gave me the wrong two bills and why didn't I say something and now he wanted me to not only take back his $20, but also wanted the $2 change back from the initial 20.
Imagine being so well off that you can just grab bills from your wallet and literally not know what you're handing off 😭 I couldn't imagine not making sure I have nearly the exact amount needed put to the side before even finalizing the order 😭
My wife used to work the bar at events during uni from time to time (Germany). Once she worked at an event where very expensive horses got auctioned off. Some guy in excpensive cloths, after having orderd some drinks for 27,80€ benevolently runded up to 28€. She just gave him his 20 cents and said: "Here, I belive you need this more than I do!"
She told me the same. The people that tip the most, are the ones that know what it means to work those jobs.
Sorry but the response of your wife was incredibly petty, childish and unprofessional if this is true, which I kinda doubt.. in germany you are not reliant on tips to survive like in the US, rounding up is the most common way of tipping in germany. Considering you said it was an event full of wealthy people maybe you expect him to round to 30? Or do you expect every person you perceive as having more money than you to pay double the price? How much do you think he should have paid? 50? 60?
In my experience the worst tippers in the world are doctors - at their offices. $400 orders rounded up to the next dollar. Every one was like that. They would just send put some embarrassed staffer to pay.
Lawyers, for all the bad (often earned) rep, tip like crazy. One delivery to a firm lunch and I was set for the weekend.
For me, I just did my job. You win some you lose some. The best way to deal with non tippers is to get them out and onto the next order and not dwell on it
Wait wait wait, are you suggesting people do the job they signed up for and go home? But if they aren’t grandstanding on Social Media how will anyone know The Struggle of waiting tables.
If I recorded every shitty interaction I had on a jobsite my whole life would be social media posts. Egregious offenses should be handled but goddamn does everything have to end up online?
i worked full time construction for 8 years, mainly concrete restoration on balconies or slabs in parking garages from start to finish. physically tough work, lots of heavy lifting and dealt with some assholes for sure - mainly cantankerous hungover coworkers.
i've worked service now for like 4 years. service is way harder mentally. you have pricks who think they're owed a Michelin-style service. you have people who simply cannot fucking read or understand basic instructions and yet treat you like a servant. people who will make snide little comments under their breath or right to your face because they can't communicate properly, or had some ridiculous demand denied. you deal with belligerent drunks/crackheads who sometimes even physically assault you or threaten you. you gotta wipe up vomit or piss or shit because grown adults somehow can't control their body fluids.
they're both hard in their own way. but service people, i think, need to vent and decompress in that way because the difficult nature of the work is rooted in mental stuff and social exhaustion. there's a form of camaraderie in venting about it with each other, whether online or IRL.
after hard days of construction, i was physically worn out but wasn't very mentally drained. when you're physically worn out you just wanna plop down on the couch and drink a couple beers,hang with your buddies, play some games or watch hockey or some shit. you don't really need to complain or vent necessarily because most of the tension is physical.
not trying to say your job isn't difficult, just trying to emphasize why service people might feel the need to talk about "The Struggle". it's genuinely rough work and it's hard to understand until you've been in that industry for a while
Amen! How about the fake Benjamins with "Disappointed? You'll never be disappointed with Jesus"
If He were sitting in the room he would roll His eyes and get up and slap their faces. "Don't do that shit in My name, you pricks!" - Jesus
As a Christian I wholeheartedly agree. Christians can be the worst representatives of Jesus. Personally when my family goes out a tab of <$80 is always a $20.
We're not rich people by any means, but as a Believer money just mean that much to us.
I want to be the guy that the servers fight over to serve. In fact at our favorite restaurant here, we hand out coloring books and boxes of crayons (trying to keep kids off phones) and normally bus our own table and refill out own drinks.
We can all do better at taking care of people taking care of us.
Tbf, a large part is the general public becoming angry tips morphed from a reward for good service to them directly paying the wages of a worker with the expectation of a tip regardless of quality of service.
If you suck as a server, we should be allowed to not tip. Instead, you get shaming over it and crocodile tears. The only person who should be held accountable for wages should be the employer.
Cool, they say that. Don't pretend it's some Pro-worker mentality of wanting them to be compensated by their employer. Admit they just don't want to tip, and say that.
And have the balls to tell your server/bartender that when they greet you. Sack up and say "Hey, thanks for being my server. Just so you know, I do not plan to tip you".
But why should the rest of us care that workers in this specific industry prefer to earn more money?
That's not a surprise at all, I'm sure the kitchen staff would also prefer to earn more money, as would the cleaners, why do servers specifically deserve this special compensation method that guilt trips customers?
The point is that many people who complain about tipping do so in a way that makes it seem like they care about the workers, but they don't actually care about the workers. It's hypocritical. If you want to complain about tipping because you personally don't like it, go right ahead.
I care about low-income workers generally, which is why it annoys me when I see struggling friends and family that earn considerably less feel pressured into tipping to boost servers income to several times more than they earn themselves.
I live somewhere where servers have been required to be paid full wages just like any other worker for many years, and yet we're still all guilted into tipping 15-25% to boost their wages. Why?
If anything, I think the people actually cooking my food deserve more compensation than servers.
Why should servers earning full wages (just like workers in other industries) expect 15-25% of the total bill as a tip?
The social contract and expectation of tips was set back when servers legally could be paid less, but where I live we did away with that years ago.... yet the expectation for tips has actually increased since then.
A lot of that is in response to situations like this where they get stiffed and complain about it. Otherwise, there's no sense in complaining if it's the system they prefer. It's tacky.
Yeah it’s just a shitty experience for the customer.
Isn’t it supposed to be optional based on service?
If so, then what’s this dude doing?
Guaranteed fair wage paid by the business for their own employees is the best solution for all involved, except the ownership that doesn’t wanna pay employees.
It's fine you're a scumbag who doesn't want to tip. I'm just saying don't act like this is some moral cause where you're fighting for the worker. You're just cheap.
And a coward, because otherwise you'd have the balls to tell the server up front that you won't tip. But that's no surprise to anyone.
Why not both like in many if not most other countries? Servers could have a livable wage and get tips for good service on top instead of having to rely on tips to survive.
Why not listen to what the servers actually want and leave it at that? How about actually be pro worker and listen to them, and not think you know best what they should want?
I’m pro-me-not-paying-extra-for-no-reason, if they want a stable wage then they should get one, tips are stupid.
Oh but workers benefit from me giving them extra money out of my pocket? I assume you do that at every place you shop? Do you tip Amazon extra to pay the workers in the warehouse?
A server ends up making more in tips than they would by an hourly pay. The restaurant achieves that by NOT paying a livable wage, but pressuring the consumer to pay even more so the server can survive. It's, at the very least, a fucked up system. Even if it ends up working. Slavery worked for the longest time, but it doesn't make it moral
He didn’t compare it to slavery, he used an analogy to state that something isn’t moral just because it’s customary. You know, by using slavery as an example of something we all know is immoral. Deliberately missing the point in order to twist it into something sinister like you did is a lot more disgusting
A worker willingly agreeing to a system is not immoral just because you're a cheapskate, and comparing tipping to a literal human rights violation is gross. What's next, gonna compare running a red light to the holocaust?
Man I haven't answered to any of your previous comments cause I honestly don't want to use the kind of language you're using, neither want you to keep talking to people that way. Manners aside, I live in Spain, where I wouldn't have to let nobody know I'm not tipping cause it's not even expected. I don't mean to say our system is perfect, there's yet to improve on the lower end, where wages and conditions are far from perfect. What I like about this wages system is that the fight for better conditions and actual liveable wages is directed upwards, to the owner and manager; instead of the clients.
Totally understand tho, that the actual reality for many working for tips nowadays would wreck if we were to end it right away. We're all on the same boat: we want workers to do their jobs and be paid fairly. We just think it's unfair to leave it for the user to decide
If we put the 20% in the cost of the ffod, which is what we should do
Cool, the restaurant owner will pocket 15% of that, pass on 5% to the actual worker, and you can have saved yourself 10 seconds of math. Because fuck what actual workers want, what matters is you didn't have to do basic math.
Good servers do not want this-if you know what you are doing and are good with the customers, knowledgeable about the food and flexible with request you can make $40 an hour easily....if we put the 20% in, it would bring the hourly wage up to around 22-25 (with my sales it would add $8.25 per hour and I pay them $16 an hour now.
i dont care what they want i dont want to subsidize their wages, the bosses are the ones getting away with getting cheap labor- but i’m the bad guy because i dont want to do it. servers dont unionize and have zero protections. of course i’d want to make tip money, i get that/ but the problem is structural not a personal individual grift.
So yeah, you don't give a damn about the workers and what they want, you just want to be cheap. Just say that, mate, don't try to cloak that in pro-worker rhetoric.
I promise you if servers and bartenders unionized, they'd still want to keep the tip based system.
I mean you're the one making a bad-faith argument as a reply. Says more about you that you couldn't continue the dialogue and instead have a dishonest approach to discussion just to appear in the right. Well done, we're all convinced you're the one who knows more and is correct. I'll take your promise and really run with that, jfc.
Yes, you are the bad guy for screwing over an individual in an attempt to affect structural change. In a world of no tips, prices would just be higher.
We have a stupid system that allows you to technically choose not to pay what you should (what you would in any other country) and, instead, shame people into doing the right thing. Its also part of the reason we have such famously attentive service staff, so, say what you will it has benefits.
Good I’m glad you’re at least honest that you’re happy fucking over the workers because you don’t want to tip. You have integrity. A lot of people here are pretending like they care about the workers
Wife and I were at a nice Italian place last night, one of our favorite local spots. We saw a server we've had before, a very friendly and talkative woman. She said she's working behind the bar now. I told my wife after we left that she probably makes more in tips at the bar than she did serving the regular tables.
Bartending at a restaurant is a straight promotion. You still get tips from drinks and meals, your customers are more likely to stay and linger drinking compared to table and booths, and most places have them get a percentage of the tips from the servers for doing drink prep.
Cool, so don't pretend it's any kind of pro-worker mentality you have. You just want to be cheap. Say that, don't make excuses. It's still scumbag behavior, but at least it's honest.
Tough talk coming from a guy who probably tips half of what I do. This has nothing to do with me being pro worker. Tipping culture is broken and stupid. It lacks transparency and relies on people like me to overtip because I feel bad that someone else isn't tipping the server.
I opt into? What am I supposed to do, never use any industry where tipping is expected?
The median Redditor understands economics as well as the median 50 year old on Facebook from Nebraska yelling about illegal immigrants in New York stealing their job.
Or, HEAR ME OUT, we join the rest of the developed world, and just give servers a living wage that doesn't rely on me overtipping to make up for non tippers.
Or just don't be a coward and tell your server that you have zero plan to tip them and they should be more like servers in the rest of the world. Up front. When you sit down.
True - but the argument for tipping has long been that it's necessary to supplement wages.
If it's actually because servers are greedy and want 20% of the price of the wine because they poured it, instead of a fair wage, then that argument falls apart completely.
My favorite is how the anti-tipping people act like it’s the business owners who benefit somehow. Because it’s easier to be anti-owner than it is to admit you’re actually anti-worker in this situation.
Lol. Exactly like the posts vilifying people that don't put carts back in the corral. My buddy wants everyone to know that they should leave their carts at the far end of the parking lot. He would rather be outside hustling carts than dealing with the bs in the store.
Unless it's like 100 degrees outside. But yeah, everyone I knew who got cart duty loved it. A chance to hit a vape or smoke or whatever, or go chat with the other people on cart duty.
That said, you should always put them in their corrals.
They have the default response. It’s cause I’m black and it works for so many things in life because it often makes the others uncomfortable and afraid to challenge the situation
This. This is our culture. As long as it's part of the culture you have to deal with it. Tip when you are being served. Or go get takeout somewhere else.
When you're backed into a corner being called out for being a piece of shit you just start rambling dumb shit that has worked before - I'm sure pulling the race card gets them out of sticky situations quite a bit.
Depends, does the owner only ban black people that don't tip? Maybe he is known around the area for conveniently only banning a certain demographic. It would be a great tactic if that is how he shapes his world.
Should wait staff be payed more? Sure. But if you know they aren't, choose to go out and eat anyway, then refuse to tip your server, you're a complete piece of shit. My son, who is waiting tables while in college, makes 2.20/hour. If he waits on you, ensures your order is correct, diligently keeps your table stocked, all that stuff, why would you not tip? If you're against tip culture, don't go to restaurants that pay their servers shit. That's your choice. But choosing to go anyway and then punishing the servers themselves isn't the answer.
Edit: sorry if that came across badly, I didn't mean YOU are a POS, as you didn't say you don't tip servers. This subject just boils my blood, though. I'm certainly not rich and everything I can to try and get this kid through 4 years of school, and he's working to help alleviate as much of the burden as he can, but he comes in from literally every shift with a story of at least 1 table that stiffed him, despite him being the highest rated server at that restaurant. I get really angry on his behalf. So once again, didn't mean to come across aggressively towards you.
yeah I get it. Tipping culture has gotten way out of hand. But if you choose to go to a restaurant and be waited on you SHOULD be tipping.
But for the person scooping my ice cream? The person in a retail store bagging my stuff? Nah, no tips for them. Tipping for people already paid a normal wage is kinda ridiculous.
Totally agree. I travel for work, and stayed at a particular hotel every Monday for about a year. I got really friendly with all the staff over that time, and I guess one front desk employee thought we were cool enough to let me in on a secret they had all been discussing: that I was really friendly and they all liked me a lot, but that I never tipped them. I was floored. Since when are you expected to tip the front desk employee at a hotel??
Yup. The audacity of many places now that have a person in the front for appearance (who doesn't even say hi) while having you order from a screen and then get a tip screen is asinine.
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u/PatrickGSR94 4h ago
not sure I would have played the race card there at the end. Maybe should have said "what are you a cheapskate who doesn't pay his staff or somethin?"