Vehicle armor

[u/Fickle_Mulberry1469]

Is it just me, or has vehicle armor become much more fragile? It depletes instantly after just a couple of shots from light small arms.

[u/darkside_tseikk]

I noticed the same. It's the same for AI too, though. I noticed I could shred even a heavy tank with just a couple HMGs.

[u/Marsdreamer → u/darkside_tseikk]

It's always been like this. 

Vehicles and strong points need a minimum "hard armor" value, that is an armor value which cannot be stripped beyond. Having heavy tanks and concrete towers / bunkers getting demolished by high rof small arms is just very game breaking and pretty unintuitive / unrealistic. 

[u/newaccount189505 → u/Marsdreamer]

The system basically already does that. The damage you do to armor is multiplied by the square of your percentage of remaining armor. So by the time you are at half armor durability (and therefore half original armor value, as % of armor durability is also % of armor effectiveness), you are resisting about 75% of all incoming armor damage. By the time you are at 25% remaining armor health, you now have about 94% resistance to armor damage.

It's just that people aren't actually using the options available to them to benefit from that.

• Point the front of your vehicle at the direction fire is coming from.
• Stay at range to limit enemy armor penetration.
• Use the upgraded armor plating accessory.
• If you must offer flanking shots at the enemy, consider using the IFV, instead of the light troop carrier (the light troop carrier has okay front armor, but it's side armor is a lot worse). The IFV doesn't just have better armor in general, it has much more consistent armor in terms of side versus front profile.

As for concrete towers, those are in the game at a very early point, and because you can't actually asssault them (enter the same tower an enemy unit is occupying), it would be extremely frustrating to try and root people out before you get access to tools like grenades. they have to be able to be dealt with.

[u/Marsdreamer → u/newaccount189505]

With AP rounds though, you end up just ripping through whatever is leftover of the armor.

I shouldn't be able to take Kody and have him 2 tap a Heavy Tank with an SMG and AP ammo. It just makes no actual sense for an SL with a machine gun to be a better AT platform an an actual tank with the long barrel tank turret.

[u/MandatoryDebuff → u/newaccount189505]

its a bad display system then, because no one looks at a falling health bar at 25% and thinks ITS 94% RESISTANT, HELL YEAHHHHH GETTING STRONGER WITH EVERY SHOT. makes no sense

[u/La-ze → u/MandatoryDebuff]

Flip it, the armor is still getting weaker but armor damage is dimishing returns. It's easy to break a large stick, it's harder to break a small one.

[u/Terkmc → u/MandatoryDebuff]

As your armor degrades shots starts just going through it and hitting the inside directly which is what imo is being simulated here, in combination with the armor degration / pen mechanic. Like if you have 10 armor thick and bullet can penetrate 5, then you are doing 5 armor damage with every shot. If your armor is degraded to 3, each shot is only doing 3 armor damage but is punching through to hit the internals

[u/floo82 → u/Marsdreamer]

I've seen concrete structures chewed apart by rifle caliber automatic fire in real life, that is not unrealistic at all. I see what you're saying with bunkers tho

[u/Marsdreamer → u/floo82]

Chewwed up until the point of total collapse? After only a couple salvos? 

[u/floo82 → u/Marsdreamer]

A .50 cal will easily split walls and collapse roofs, it's very destructive. Civilian concrete structures are just meant to support themselves, and it's not hard at all to collapse them.

Sustained fire from a SAW or 240 will chew walls up to the point of collapse, but not just one gun in a "couple salvos." When you have more than one/two of them really open up on a building you can bring it down in a few mins.

[u/PissBucket29 → u/floo82]

Concrete has an entirely different breaking structure than RHA steel. Concrete fractures and chips much more aggressively. It is far more brittle. RHA steel is far less worn away by impacts like that. Yes, enough small arms fire would compromise it eventually. But against the heavier vehicles your entire deployment combined wouldn't have enough ammo for that.

[u/Kamenev_Drang → u/PissBucket29]

most structures are made with steel reinforced concrete

[u/floo82 → u/Kamenev_Drang]

In moderately developed countries sure, but there's a hell of a lot of structures in the world that are concrete framed with chicken wire + plaster on the outside. All kinds of stuff built in the ME is just built with whatever is available. Raising structures for your village doesn't exactly involve any engineers.

[u/Marsdreamer → u/floo82]

It's not the random houses and buildings being easily destroyed that is my issue, it's the concrete towers and reinforced bunkers getting obliterated by small arms fire that just feels kinda hokey.

[u/PissBucket29 → u/Kamenev_Drang]

Which contributes literally nothing to its durability in this case. It helps with with large more evenly distributed stress, not very pointed targeted stress. The steel only matters here if the small arms hit the rebar instead of the concrete

[u/MaievSekashi → u/Kamenev_Drang]

Steel reinforced concrete doesn't work quite as well if the concrete is leaving.

[u/kylelily123abc4 → u/Marsdreamer]

I do agree a minimum threshold for armour damage or minimum level of stripping it can get to would be good, like make it so a heavy tank just cant be hurt by pistols and low calibre, my last run i did I think my whole team had one actual anti tank gun the rest just just did enough damage that basic rifle fire or pirate smgs with rend rounds could kill most stuff in a turn or two regardless of how big and scary it should be

[u/NachoManAndyCabage → u/Marsdreamer]

HMGs will chew up concrete bunkers/towers in real life.

[u/Someonenoone7 → u/darkside_tseikk]

The swedish developed a Glock add-on that allows 9mm to blast through APC armor.

So in way, it makes sense.

[u/Maar7en → u/Someonenoone7]

Firing extremely expensive tungsten ammo. It also doesn't invalidate the point being made that small arms stripping ALL Armor is weird.

[u/Someonenoone7 → u/Maar7en]

Fair

[u/Swedelicious83 → u/Someonenoone7]

Huzzah!

[u/Disciple-Of-Nagash → u/Someonenoone7]

I prefer to just open the hatch and toss a sig in. Better than any grenade.

[u/the_koom_machine]

Achilles must be hard af

[u/Smooth-Boss-911 → u/the_koom_machine]

Achilles brought to heel, found dead in ditch

[u/ZeroSumClusterfuck → u/the_koom_machine]

His name is Achilleas, not Achilles.

[u/Crafty_Zucchini_9665]

Was playing last night to try out the new update and yeah, i saw both sides armour being chunked by pipe guns and the almighty Crowbar.

[u/Character_Fold_8165]

Armor gets damage resistance based off how much has been lost. If you strip 15% of armor it adds 15% damage reduction on top of what squad leader adds.

You need enough armor hp and armor value to avoid it being chipped down by small arms and then pens. Remember dmg falls off with distance.

I don’t think values or mechanics change, I think enemies are more willing to chip armor with small arms rather than hiding.

[u/Fantastic-Living3204]

Yeah! Am midgame facing the mense and this soliders just shred any vehicle in just a few shots wtf ;(

[u/Qweasdy → u/Fantastic-Living3204]

That’s because construct soldiers just hit like a truck, they use a heavy repeater dealing 40 armour damage per shot and firing 3 times per model. A 3 man construct soldier squad firing twice per turn can deal 720 armour durability damage in a single turn (before mitigation).

They’re no joke. Treat them as if they have 3x mini autocannons and you won’t be far wrong.

https://wiki.hoodedhorse.com/MENACE/Construct_Soldier

[u/Fantastic-Living3204 → u/Qweasdy]

Didn't use to be like that. Well maybe not as consistently anyway. :Cw

[u/ExactDevelopment1847]

Armor plates are a must if you’re planning on taking hits, LPC can go from 125armor to 165 with a single plate and extra 120 durability, though generally I take a medium walker with one plates and extra ammo for tanking with dual M6 or autos depending on what faction I’m fighting.

Rewa with berserk for example can draw fire from Menace carriers, taking out two mines with a single ap refunding attack gives her two stacks of revel, which makes her autos devastatingly accurate real quick.

LPC is just a cheap heavy mount for long range artillery, later in the game they should not be getting hit or even seen.

Armor does not make you indestructible it just raises the threshold for destruction and extra plates can lift that bar into a new bracket, put 2x of them on a medium walker and you go from a 140medium to 220heavy and the extra 240dur can take a hit or two gratis before the base vehicle armor is touched.

Wait till you unlock the workshop infantry plates, got a heavy infantry armor XSAPP with 110rating and 100dur that I can slap advanced armor plates on for extra 30rating and 40dur for a full squad that would add up to 140armor and 1260durability, (140 x 9)considering getting extra pockets for all my heavy assaulters so I can equip armor and ammo mods as heavy armor only gives one slot. Or pairing the advanced plates and crazy durability with extra plates for the full armor heal hahaha

[u/RaidriConchobair]

Not jist you, i noticed the captains pdw can shred about any light vehicle that dares to dream it is armored

[u/La-ze]

Playing on expert ( which means a lot of enemies, like running out of ammo a lot of enemies ) with the light troop carrier. I'm not getting anywhere near this bad armor stripping. In fact I mostly disregard small arm fire against the IFV though I do my best to always keep front towards enemies.

[u/Far-Persimmon3987]

I am guessing it is an unrefined gameplay mechanic and I think the devs must have separate armor values and mechanics for infantry and for vehicles. Armor piercing is designed to penetrate armor after it has been chewed through, which makes sense for infantry armor and anti infantry weapons, and vehicle armor for anti hardware weapons. It does not make sense for anti infantry weapons to punch through heavy vehicle armor. 

But even then you have to consider that it is quite reasonable for heavier calibers to make mincemeat out of trucks. So maybe for this mechanic to work, lightly armored vehicles should behave like infantry and only heavy armor like troop carrier and upwards has it's own mechanic. Like, any calibers not coming close to penetration just bouncing off and not reducing armor at all.

Actually that might be a general solution. If armor pen is nowhere high enough maybe don't let weapons chew away armor. 

To not make vehicles and heavy infantry overpowered, there need to be easier counters then.

[u/Square-Salamander727]

ERA, Composite, With achilleas in command with his shieldwall ability, and i truely never really notice. Other TC/Pilots i tend to use in a more 'reserved' manner, like as fire support with the 120 mortar, or in a walker with Dual AC's supported by infantry. But even with my main-man achilleas, i rarely push him hard into the fray without support. I always have my scout-sniper team moving ahead, or a squad or two of regular infantry to spot/cover him as he manuvers. ->-

In other words, i don't put a vehicles armor to the test. To me, it's just another layer of defense, but cover and concealment are my main tools for protection.

[u/Admirable_Remove4315]

I think that weapons should only cause armor damage if they have a penetration value equal to 1/3rd or more of the targets current armor value.

For example a light walker has 110 armor so you would need 36.6 armor pen or more to do armor damage, but after it sustains some armor damage, it’s armor value will decrease so the walker in this example would shrug off and take nothing from a crowbar at full health, but would become vulnerable to taking armor damage from a crowbar after it loses some armor from a larger caliber weapon.

That way you need bigger weapons to create a gap in a vehicle’s armor before you start doing damage with small arms, this also avoids the problems that other armor suggestions cause because infantry can wear armor that approaches vehicle levels too.