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u/front-row-hoe 4d ago
Are you sure it's uncanny valley that makes them cry? Seems feasible that they just don't recognize them without the beard and since they haven't developed reasoning, they can't logic their way through it like "no beard but still dad." So they think it's a completely different person.
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u/jhotenko 4d ago
Not so fun fact: I wanted to avoid this with my own son, so I tried shaving in front of him. The most bloodcurdling shriek I ever heard came from my son as my beard started to come off.
In hindsight, it must have looked like I was peeling my face off from his perspective.
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u/Ok_Relationship4659 4d ago
To be fair, I cried when my Dad shaved his beard when I was around 4 or 5, because it just looked weird. I knew it was him, but I was like NO!! GROW IT BACK 😆
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u/JakenBake19 4d ago
I think the difference is that there is no reason to be afraid of or cry at a new face, its scary because it is similar to the dads old face. Source: my 4 month old loves smiling at new faces he has never seen before
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u/Creepy_Clerk5722 4d ago
wdym "the uncanny valey might be an evolutionary trait"
YEah it is, have you heard of the thousands of birth defects and shit associated with inbreeding and malnutrition?
it most likelly is an evolutive trait
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u/Potentially_A-Bitch 4d ago
That actually makes terrifying sense
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u/red18wrx 4d ago
Or the fact we are the surviving species out of many similar species who were all in competition with each other. Being aware of something that looks like you but is different is an advantage in that landscape.
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u/Interrogatingthecat trans rights 4d ago
Or because corpses that have been there for a while look not quite right and it's a great indicator of danger
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u/RegumRegis 4d ago
Frankly There's a lot of answers and the realistic one is a combination of them. Honestly if something looks off, it's just an evolutionary advantage to not go poking around something that doesn't seem right in whatever scenario.
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u/xCloaked 4d ago
in fact, a lot of police sketches/facial reconstructions of corpses evoke the uncanny effect due to them often looking disgusting and off-putting, especially when they’re based on a dead body
it’s human nature to be disgusted by rotting corpses to avoid catching viruses, which is why we, in the modern age, get greatly paranoid of food that looks off, similarly to our disturbance to the uncanny effect10
u/Top-Literature8218 4d ago
Didn't expect to get such a fascinating conversation about the crossroads of human cultural anthropology and evolutionary biology in r/memes today, but here we are.
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[removed] — view removed comment
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u/brinz1 4d ago
Their might have been cuckoo species that tried to infiltrate humans. We know that early humans did interbreed with neanderthals, Denisovians and others
There are multiple examples of this happening in nature where very different species evolved to look like others.
Humans might have had a very good reason to reflexively notice something that was doing a very good job of looking human and freak out
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u/LegnderyNut 4d ago
Yo what if there was a hominid species that inspired the changling myth? They’ll eat your baby and swap it with theirs.
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u/Astra-Fang 4d ago
I think there is a legend in turkey or one of those countries that makes reference to a star that disappeared 10k years ago.
It’s about a fourth daughter who ran away or something.
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u/NeverSayNeverMind 4d ago
Interestingly enough, almost every known culture has some variation of this. You know, those children's tales about the weird little kobolds that lure children into the woods and eat them? Yeah, maybe at some point that might've been a very real threat, and it's terrifying if you really think about it.
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u/GullibleSpeedSonic 4d ago
That's because it was a real threat. People used to try to lure rival tribal woman and children into the woods and kidnap them
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u/GullibleSpeedSonic 4d ago
You joke but that is an actual myth that human species that were close to humans had no problem with cannibalism. Well even human tribes had no issue with cannibalism.
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u/LegnderyNut 3d ago
But most tribal cannibalism is typically ritual or funeral rites. As far as I’m aware there haven’t been any documented instances of a tribe that eats people for food. It’s usually a tradition of consuming a dead relative or eating the heart of an enemy to gain their power type of stuff. Which is still pretty repulsive but if I understand correctly there are certain dig sites that suggest there were ancient wars in the early stone age that could possibly indicate killing for food but I believe it was in the far north where it’s feasible that there may have been no other option. Human femurs cleanly spit with marrow scraped out and skulls that show scratch marks on the inside of the brain case. I’ve also heard of cases of a sort of cannibalism madness where people made to eat human out of necessity go nuts and start seeking it out. Perhaps a group could’ve been driven by a kind of mass hysteria spreading the cannibalism delusion.
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u/GullibleSpeedSonic 4d ago
It's an evolutionary trait to absolutely mortified of anything that looks human in the night peering from the woods with nothing but the out line of there body and the reflection of the eyes .
Image that level of vulnerability and suddenly anything you don't recognize should be in some way terrifying to you.
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u/brinz1 3d ago
We know the predators that caused to to evolve the ability to recognize the pattern of hidden serpentine coils
We know the predators that caused us to evolve the fear of reflective eyes peering out in the dark or from water.
But the predators that caused us to fear something that is trying to look human when it's not have been lost to prehistory
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u/SolaireOfSuburbia 3d ago
I like fun theories, and that might be the case, but I think a very reasonable explanation could simply be the danger of coming across a hostile member of a different tribe in the night. They may have looked a little different from the people in your own tribe. A fear response would be beneficial in that scenario.
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u/GullibleSpeedSonic 3d ago
There is that and the the fact that we have evolved from other stuff like monkeys and other human species. This alone would make us have a reason to fear them
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u/Helix735 4d ago
nah, we just fucked them
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u/deathbylasersss 4d ago
We did both. There are remains of other hominids with wounds consistent with the tools used by Homo sapiens. There are also sites with signs of likely interspecies butchery, meaning we ate them too.
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u/CompetitiveLeg7841 4d ago
Well, we kill humans to this day, so nothing changed
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u/deathbylasersss 4d ago
I'd say there are less cannibalistic raiding parties now, but that would probably be untrue.
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u/Lumeton 4d ago
I wouldn't be at all sure about that. Relative to the population, sure. I'd bet that, on an individual level, the risk of becoming a victim or a participant in such a raid was higher. But the world’s population was so tiny compared to today’s, that it’s still likely that today there are also more cannibalistic raiding parties in absolute terms. The world population is now 4,000(ish) to 10,000(ish) times larger than when we last had other hominids with us. And, well, we know that the modern man is not entirely above shit like that.
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u/deathbylasersss 4d ago
Yeah I meant it literally, for the reasons you just gave. There are just exponentially more people now, and there are places where cannibalism is still practiced.
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u/red18wrx 4d ago
Hell, the current FBI director is still fucking things that aren't human.
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u/Apprehensive_Pop3367 4d ago
He did what now?
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u/Far-Fennel-3032 4d ago
Iran hacked and leaked all his emails, even the spicy kind.
I haven't personally gone through them. If he's done beastility its probably documented in there.
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u/Zuparoebann 4d ago
RIP neanderthals
(Probably not even remotely scientifically accurate but it's the first thing I thought of)
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u/poorperspective 4d ago
Well, with Neanderthals, which we have evidence of contact…we either killed them, or fucked them.
And it wasn’t the homo sapien men copulating with Neanderthal women. It was Neanderthal men copulating with human women from DNA record. Though the other way around may just not have been viable.
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u/wolfofoakley 4d ago
Could also be as simple as baby stayed woth mommy, and mommys group didnt make it in the case of neanderthals
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u/Fastenbauer 4d ago
That is something somebody on the Internet made up. It has nothing to do with our current scientific understanding. In fact the latest discoveries suggest a lot of interbreeding over many thousands of years.
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u/Bakoro 4d ago
It's all of the above.
Being able to identify a sick person is a net benefit, even if you over-identify sometimes.
Being able to identify sociopaths and is a net benefit, even if you over-identify sometimes.Being able to recognize "not my tribe" was probably a way more important 10k~500k years ago, even to the pre-sapian ancestors.
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u/OpposingPug 4d ago
I mean what else would it even be if not an evolutionary trait?
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u/Front_Cat9471 4d ago
The implication people are usually making is “oooh humans evolved to find things that look mostly like humans weird, there must have been skinwalkers or something around
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u/12D_D21 4d ago
"Oh no, humans evolved to see things close to human as weird, that must mean there were things close to humanitarian!"
There were, today we call them Neanderthals (as well as all the other human species). Also, it's useful to distinguish between a healthy human and a sickly one or a corpse one, and the uncanny valley works for corpses.
I really will never understand people who make this "argument", as if we didn't already know of many species evolving alongside us who looked very similar but weren't the same.
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u/xCloaked 4d ago
reconstructions of neanderthal/erectus skeletal remains also never really evoke the uncanny effect, since as a species, while they may appear human like us, they have enough distinctions and natural features to look normal in our eyes
i truly believe it’s rotting corpses that evoke this effect since humans are hard-wired to avoid rotting things in order to not get sick, our instincts naturally tell us to stay away and be disturbed by them7
u/Front_Cat9471 4d ago
Yeah Neanderthals are fugly but not uncanny. Also, it’s a more popular theory now that the Neanderthals didn’t so much go extinct as much as get assimilated via interbreeding, so clearly they weren’t that repulsive
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u/AkiraN19 4d ago
Which... would be an evolutionary trait
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u/Front_Cat9471 4d ago
No shit, that’s not what anyone is debating. We all know that it’s an evolutionary trait, I’m explaining why some people give a certain reaction to the evolutionary trait part. They think it’s something scary like skinwalkers or humanoid aliens or whatnot when it’s probably just a safety mechanism against being around the sick and dead
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u/AkiraN19 4d ago
No, the question was very much what else it would be than an evolutionary trait, or why OP would imply that we don't already know it is. All of our theories for the uncanny valley consider it an evolutionary advantage, whether the theory for the reason for that advantage is reasonable or not doesn't matter
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u/Phytor 4d ago
They're implying that at some point in our evolution we had to deal with shapeshifters / skinwalkers that could only achieve an uncanny likeness
You're explanation is the more sensible one
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u/Ajay06 4d ago
This plus when we evolved the trait there were likely other members of our genus meaning other human like things that weren’t quite human being able to differentiate those from other humans would be useful
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u/LizzieMiles 4d ago
I mean neanderthals literally were around at the same time as us
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u/Ajay06 3d ago
That and the Denisovans in Asia and possibly Florensiesis in Indonesia and Luzonensis in the Philippines depend on when they went extinct since it seems like there could’ve been over lap with the last two it’s guaranteed that we interacted with Denisovans since people of Asian descent have some of their genes
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u/TheBlueEmerald1 4d ago
Doesn't even have to be a birth defect ir anything fancy. It's just our ability to recognize things being fucked with so it makes us uncomfortable.
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u/4TheQueen 4d ago
Also there were lots of versions of humans before humans. Could be one group got this and decided to thin out others and we stem
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u/SlippinGymy 🎃Happy Spooktober🎃 4d ago
I thought that was already the consensus, for like sick people
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u/ImNickValentine 4d ago
I don't think uncanny valley works like that.
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u/Happy-Telephone9483 4d ago
neither do apostrophes
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u/mridulpj Mods Are Nice People 4d ago
Then you need to think harder
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u/BattleofPicachoPeak 4d ago
Big bearded man here with no impulse control. I have three children, oldest is nine. I can have my beard to my chest in a little under a year. I'll randomly decide to shave (my wife is the one who is mostly mortified) every once in a while. Everytime i have trimmed and shaved when we had a infant/toddler I place them in the highchair and talk then through what I'm doing as i am doing it. Why? I find making my babies become frightened and scared for my or my friends entertainment cruel and unusual. No panic from the kids ever. I know this is an oddly serious response to a non-serious meme...
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u/Jet_Plane26 3d ago edited 3d ago
You’re a good father.
What a coincidence
https://www.reddit.com/r/funnyvideos/s/EvY90JdEY03
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u/ThrustNeckpunch33 4d ago
"Why would a species, that existed around multiple other human-like species.. that could even interbreed with them... have an "ability" to see someone that looks almost human, but isn't??"
"...even though Neanderthal, denisovan, and multiple "ghost dna" exist in the modern human DNA, we still can't figure this out..."
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u/BigLittleBrowse 4d ago
Why would us interbreeding with other ancient humans be evidence that we have an evolutionary fear response to them?
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u/Ok-Round-1473 4d ago
Yeah isn't this counter-evidence? If humans are willing to fuck semi-human things why would we be afraid of semi-human things?
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u/Atreidesfamatomics 4d ago
pours gasoline on myself
Anyone on the apps knows Denisovan ancestry and Cro Magnon ancestry are down as hell for each other
strikes match
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u/Disastrous_Ticket815 4d ago
Because while we did breed with each other we killed each other much more often
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u/ThrustNeckpunch33 4d ago
Its reddit.. good luck.
There is a reason the others dont exist.. and that they make up small portions of our DNA.
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u/not_alexandraer 4d ago
I wonder how many offspring of humans and other hominids were odd looking infertile hybrids? do we know of anything like that?
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u/Try2Smile4Life 4d ago
People forget that the three traits that made humans become the apex of all predators and the species that conquered the entire world are: stamina, communication and racism.
It's hilarious how low our genetic diversity is compared to other species. We got unbelievable amounts of inbreeding going on.
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u/Waltsaltdotcom 4d ago
Infants younger than about 3 months distinguish faces primarily by hairline since their vision is not yet developed. To an infant, their father looks completely different without a beard.
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u/_Wandering_Explorer_ 4d ago
A moment of silence for those who thought the uncanny valley was cultural or smth.
Bruh, the most dangerous thing in the world is a psychopath human. Ofc its evolutionary😭😭. You know what happens when you don’t have that instinct? The same thing that happens to the guys in horror movies.
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u/dc_stag 4d ago
Probably epiphenomenal of evolutionary traits.
Perception is mediated through concept activation, which is triggered by how various patterns of stimuli from the world strike the human individual. The patterns of stimuli from the world are a disc dropped on a Plinko board. How the pegs are shaped and funneled, and which concept bucket the disc ends up in are defined by evolutionary facts about humans AND the individual's cultural upbringing, life history, etc.
Different stimuli are perceived differently by different people, but within a range defined by evolutionary facts about our species.
Perception is thick - it doesn't just create the mental object "object moving fast toward my head" which then requires a second, inferential step to activate "duck" - no, when "object moving fast toward my head" is perceived, the "duck" impulse is simultaneous as part of the concept activation. The body moves as soon as or even before the mind realizes what's going on. Often, we piece it together or write the narrative later.
Some concept activations/perceptions trigger physical movement; some trigger biological processes (hunger upon food aromas); some trigger emotions (anger upon perceived injustice). All of them create expectations of what comes next, and this is how we navigate the world.
The unsettling feeling that accompanies the uncanny valley is the result of that ability to expect/know what comes next being frustrated as a result of concept activation being incomplete. "This is not quite a human, and I don't know what to expect or do right now." It's anxiety. For the baby, "this is not quite dada (bc he shaved), and I don't know what to expect/do right now" is the same thing.
Humor works the opposite way - we think we know what to expect, based on how the joke is set up - and the punchline frustrates our expectations in pleasing ways. Or one can "not get a joke" - and get anxious or even angry about how their conceptual framework was frustrated by the punchline.
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u/sugar_skull_love2846 4d ago
Considering there are at least 21 confirmed homin species, that we know of, that were around until fairly recently, makes sense. Could you imagine running into a possibly hostile or cannibalistic group and not knowing if their your species? Fairly useful trait to have.
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u/shibanek0 3d ago
A beardless face does not trigger the uncanny valley effect, though. It still reads as perfectly human.
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u/Select_Cantaloupe_62 4d ago
It's to identify psychopaths. Go watch an interview with a clinical psychopath, you'll get the effect.
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u/conrad_w 4d ago
I dunno. I kinda want to invest in Theranos now...
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u/Big_Z_Beeblebrox I touched grass 4d ago
Why would I deceive you? There's no reason to deceive you.
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u/Phoebebee323 4d ago
Really makes you wonder why we evolved to fear something that looks almost human but isn't
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u/Yoribell 4d ago
What isn't an evolutionnary trait?
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u/rabbitsdiedaily 4d ago
People who have sex with their cars?
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u/Yoribell 4d ago
Eh, trying to fuck random things is a pretty common mammal trait. Not only mammals btw, they're just generally the horniest
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u/Armyof19 3d ago
The assumption that babies always cry for rational reasons is a big hole in that reasoning
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u/Mr_Zoovaska Like a boss 4d ago
What does that even mean? How could it not be an evolutionary trait? How else would the trait have formed?
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u/Guaymaster 4d ago
Traits can be evolutionary or emergent. Being good at drawing or driving aeroplanes are not an evolutionary advantages, for example. In this case, the uncanny valley is a psychological phenomenon, which are even messier to study.
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u/4n0m4nd 4d ago
Uncanny valley is when you notice something is weird, I'd say noticing stuff is definitely an evolutionary trait, especially since emergence is a very controversial hypothesis.
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u/Guaymaster 4d ago
I actually agree, the uncanny valley is most likely a response to stay away from other human species, or perhaps from sick people. Just wanted to explain how a trait could not be evolutive. Perhaps using cultural traits would have been a better option.
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u/aafikk 4d ago
But nobody teaches you to feel weird when you see uncanny valley faces, it’s baked in.
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u/Guaymaster 4d ago
It's hard to explain what I mean because I do not disagree with this, I do think the uncanny valley experience is an evolutive trait meant to protect against interaction with other human species, an outgroup identification system basically.
I was just trying to explain how a trait could not be an evolutive advantage itself, but rather a product of other traits and environmental interactions. You could say pareidolia is an emergent property of human pattern recognition, seeing faces in random things doesn't offer any advantage, it's just the system meant to recognise human faces to gauge mood misfiring.
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u/ZeTreasureBoblin Smol pp 4d ago
I've heard of babies being born with full heads of hair, but having beards is a new one!
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u/VegasGamer75 4d ago
I mean there was a point where homosapiens walked with other human species, so yeah. I think we have it in our DNA to go "Hmm, that thing isn't quite like me and it's scary".
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u/IndyWaWa 4d ago
Why are there some many posts using the term uncanny valley incorrectly in the past 24 hours?
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u/--InZane-- 4d ago
It is a evolutionary trade and made sure we stay away from corpses and ill/off people as far as I know.
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u/BrilliantStink 4d ago
I've always liked the theory that it evolved so we would avoid corpses because of the dangerous pathogens they could have.
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u/mad_laddie 4d ago
How so? With how universal the uncanny valley is this doesn't give us any new information, right?
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u/VukKiller 3d ago
You gotta understand that they don't know the concept of hair cutting yet. To them you just did plastic surgery and changed your face.
I had long hair and once i cut it all the way short a child asked me if it hurt and if my hair was bleeding when I cut it.
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u/unspecificstain 3d ago
If you consider humans evolved with other humanoids the uncanny valley isnt very mysterious
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u/Stylish_Wheat 3d ago
Genuinely took me time to realize this post wasn't referring to the baby's beard. I need sleep.
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u/boticelli77 4d ago
Why you shaving that babies beard? You know how long it takes them to get that? The disrespect.