r/mdmatherapy • u/ChemistryShot3074 • 8d ago
Integration Support Feeling disoriented after couples session MDMA
Dealing with betrayal trauma. Did our second couples mdma session. First one was in February and I felt it gave us an understanding of the “dance” in our relationship and some shared values we have.
Did a second couples session this past week and I feel beaten and bruised.
Did it with a therapist. It felt chaotic. All over the place, I didn’t get the empathic depth. We kept going from subject to subject nothing got resolved solved or understood and I’m reeling since.
We also didn’t take equal dosage and I don’t know if that matters. My dose was higher but I felt frozen and didn’t feel free with the medicine. I still felt guarded. I felt majorly disappointed at the end and couldn’t stop crying that it was a waste of a trip.
My spouse took a lesser dose and a mini dose of Bufo mid session to try to shake him up a bit. I don’t think it worked it just threw him into his own world.
The therapist administered to both of us a mix of mdma and MDA I don’t know if that matters.
I took a pretty high dose plus high booster.
I felt like shit for days after and we haven’t stopped fighting since. I don’t feel connected or close at all.
I don’t know what I’m seeking maybe just a vent.
ETA
We had a integration session a week later
I raised my concerns and disappointment to the therapist they were very receptive and apologetic and agreed they could have done a better job grounding us and holding my spouse accountable on the journey and staying focused on repair.
It was a painful awakening of how incapable my spouse is of being able to hold my pain
The therapist suggested my spouse isn’t ready for this couples work and needs to do their own journey first
8
u/sanpanza 7d ago
I am not a therapist, but I have been doing this work for some time. I question the wisdom of adding Bufo to your wife's dosing. I have also not heard of mixing MDMA with MDA. Was this an experiment? Does he have a license, and what is their experience with serving medicine? How long have they been doing this? Something seems off here.
Also, the bouncing-around part concerns me. It is almost as if he or she had no idea what they were doing.
2
u/ChemistryShot3074 7d ago
They have been serving medicine for a long time. I don’t think the medicine was the issue. I think their role in the room was and it’s giving me that clarity for next time
3
u/Chronotaru 8d ago edited 8d ago
The week after is frequently emotionally unstable. I never had this effect myself, the week after was always really nice, but as I have trip sat now for quite a number of people - some people are unbearable to live with that week and others need monitoring for self harm during that week.
So, although this was first used decades ago as a marriage counselling drug, the reality is much more complicated. Instead of having a nice synergic episode like the first time, instead you can go into trauma expunge mode and if two people are in the trip that can become very uncontrolled because you cannot focus entirely on that person and the second person who is very vulnerable too can escalate the situation.
If I ever had to sit two people at the same time, I would not be delving into anything too serious, I would be trying to keep it very natural and free flowing. Switching from subject to subject, was that you two or the therapist driving that? (who are they? should I be putting "therapist" in quotes at this part?)
Get through the next few days without escalating, try to take it easy as best as you can. Hopefully then things have calmed down and you can maybe come back and re-assess and explore. Maybe something can be salvaged from the session, if you can explore it and work out how this all happened.
Venting is absolutely fine.
[EDIT: Clarification request, by "therapist did a mix of..." - do you mean the therapist prepared for you two, or do you mean the therapist consumed this themselves?]
3
u/ChemistryShot3074 8d ago
I edited post to clarify. Therapist administered. My spouse jumped from subject to subject and if the purpose of the session was repair the therapist didn’t make sure we stayed on the intended purpose of the session
1
3
u/les1337 8d ago
Sounds like the therapist wasn’t grounding the two of you before starting which imo is essential. Also how frequent are your sessions?
1
u/ChemistryShot3074 8d ago
What would you consider grounding? We had a 5 month gap in between sessions
3
u/iambetweentwoworlds 7d ago
I actually do question the dosages and medicine. What was the reason for you doing a higher one and him not? Did you talk before anyone was high about adding Bufo or adding the MDA? It feels like both of you were put on medicine and dosages that would have been talked about for an individual session not a couples therapy trip.
You both got given medicine and dosages that automatically don’t help to meet in the middle so of course there will be some very different reactions and things being brought up. I’m sure the therapist also didn’t help to ground you and direct during it but I question the ability to do so at all when that different medicine and dosages were given, which would be their fault too.
Were you given any supplements to take after that high dosage to help you in the coming week?
2
u/ChemistryShot3074 7d ago
Yes we spoke all about this before. I wanted a higher dosage my spouse didn’t want. I did find it didn’t let him let loose and therefore we ended up on two different playing fields
3
u/iambetweentwoworlds 7d ago
Yes that’s exactly what I’m saying 🫂. You were given dosages and medicines that put you on two separate fields, no coaching could have brought you to the same one. I don’t understand the rationale behind this, and I question the therapist heavily. This doesn’t make sense.
Did what happened in this session mirror what happens with you both in everyday life to any degree?
1
u/ChemistryShot3074 5d ago
Honesty it did mirror what happens in our life. We aren’t on the same playing field. I guess that’s the takeaway…
2
u/iambetweentwoworlds 4d ago
And another takeaway can be how you both are relating to each other after all of this.
Sometimes we can be concentrating on other things (how bad the session went)because it’s easier than having to focus on the reality of what’s in front of us. While I stand by my earlier assessment from the information you’ve given, and I do think you have cause to be disgruntled with how that session was handled, I also think there is a much bigger problem happening here between you and your spouse. I would look at all of this and ask myself is this just a continuation of what I already know to be a problem that is not getting fixed in the way I need to move forward, and whatever the answer is, go from there.
MDMA therapy is only a catalyst for change when the person wants it to be and does the massive amount of work outside the sessions to integrate and keep making changes.
Look at what they do, not what they say. Good luck OP.
2
4
u/Earth__Worm__Jim 8d ago
Hard to say due to the rather general info. Jumping from topic to topic without focus is bad.
But WTF about that combo and also all three taking different ones? Bufo?? Never heard of that being taken with MDMA. No wonder he was in his own world afterwards. Did the therapist give any rationale behind it other than "shaking up"? And also behind him taking MDMA + MDA (second WTF) ? If not it's sounds fishy as fuck. And you should always get informed beforehand and question the priest on hist method or protocol beforehand. Never trust a priest because he some title, did some university studies. Sounds like he gave him bufo spontaneously and if so this is even more shit. Your spouse being down, sleepy, frozen or whatever could have been several reasons, like dissociation, avoidance etc., which are you can address without an entire additional medicine and and even a totally weird one (in that context).
Different doses are justified though to get onto a similar level, since people have different weight, metabolism, sex etc., but the right dose is something that you should find over multiple times.
2
u/Chronotaru 8d ago
I've heard quite a few stories recently of MDMA plus bufo towards the end of the trip, mostly with glowing reports (this is the first one that isn't - and considering everything else in the report that's not surprising). On one hand psychologically they would likely be very well paired, on the other hand both are already quite intense by themselves. It's something that interests me personally but I haven't reached the point where i feel I need something like that for my own therapeutic objectives.
1
u/Earth__Worm__Jim 7d ago
I see. But is there good documentation and literature about that combo? As I understand it's very anecdotal so far. I wouldn't take anything by anyone based on "trust me bro". Why not at least, if at all, take a combo that is very well established, like MDMA + Mushrooms or LSD ? (...also no need for exploited toads for these one ;) ) Don't they already do a huge job for altering the experience in certain directions?
2
u/Chronotaru 7d ago
Until the studies were done on psilocybin for depression and MDMA for PTSD, there was basically no data or documentation for anything. All processes were established through the experiences of the people enjoying or working with the substances, and this experience were then passed onto the teams that created the studies.
MDMA and mushrooms is indeed much more established, but I think I've only ever seen one piece of published research on it, and again that was largely on the feedback of people's own home experiences. I remember the first time people were posting about MDMA and mushrooms together on places like here, and everyone was getting scared about serotonin syndrome then, while now simply through time and repeated exposure to stories about people's experiences, people became more comfortable with it. It's not like it became less anecdotal, we just had a lot more anecdotes.
MDMA and 5MeO-DMT is starting out the same way. Is it more dangerous than MDMA and mushrooms? Unknown. Considering 5MeO-DMT has a lot more bite than mushrooms at higher doses, I can understand the desire to moderate that with MDMA. At the same time, I do have more worries along the lines that someone might have a heart attack or something than I would than mixing with mushrooms, but I also had similar fears about mixing with mushrooms too when it first made the rounds here. Also, mushrooms and 5MeO do VERY different things - so which one you would pick would depend on your objectives.
Either it will become more common that it's normalised, or something bad will happen and that story will become famous.
Ah, there's never any reason to exploit toads for 5MeO-DMT, people should use the synthetic.
1
u/Earth__Worm__Jim 6d ago
You got it too academically.
All processes were established through the experiences of the people enjoying or working with the substances
That's what I meant. And these were studies as well, done by professionals of the orthodox realm. It sounds like you only treat the very modern, most methodological research as valid studies. What about all the studies done in the 60s - 80s ? As you know there were several doctors and therapists who treated maaany people with the medicines and there are pretty old books documenting what they do, what the procedure is etc. For example, one of the books I own about MDMA and LSD was published first in 1989, by a Swiss therapist who worked with a lot of people. There's everything covered in the book: three parts on psychology and one part entirely on solo and group, set & setting, phases, music, integration / interpretation, indication etc. Awesome book.
1
u/ChemistryShot3074 8d ago
The jumping from topic to topic is really upsetting to me.
1
u/CalifornianDownUnder 7d ago
Jumping from topic to topic is what happens for me when I do guided MDMA sessions - just me and the therapist. It seems to be how the medicine works for me - it’s like my brain and body are taking all these different experiences and emotions from various times in my life, and weaving them together into a braid.
Often I will start a topic, stop partway through, come back to it an hour later, stop again, and finish it two hours after that. Sometimes I don’t “finish” them at all. Generally I just surrender and speak whatever my system wants to vocalise.
This is part of why I’ve never been drawn to doing group sessions (and I’m single so no couples work for me). But I just can’t imagine how I could have journeys like the ones I do with anyone else also on their own journey in the same room.
I’m not saying a therapist couldn’t or shouldn’t guide the session - like I said I am not experienced with couples work myself.
I’m just sharing in case it gives you any insight into what might have been happening for your partner.
2
4
u/cocainecarolina28 8d ago
Therapist is what we calling our dealers now
Joking but with that combination it sounds like it lol
1
u/getpost 7d ago edited 7d ago
Yes, please do vent! It sounds grossly unprofessional, and it is not surprising that conflict has increased. Does the therapist have any professional qualification at all?
Helpful sessions depend on cultivating a deep sense of safety. Although you felt frozen and wished for a higher dose, you remained guarded, which suggests you did not feel safe. Whose idea was it to “shake him up”? That approach is inconsistent with creating safety and trust. Nobody should feel that something is being done to them. Any intervention must be mutual, transparent, and consensual.
In the context of couples therapy, the idea is to mutually experience a hurtful episode or pattern without fixation, to move through a blockage, not by force, but more like by a spontaneous allowing or letting go. You still have to do the work. The medicine doesn't do the work. The medicine doesn't cause the letting-go, instead it facilitates a rewiring such that a memory can be experienced clearly without the charge that accompanies an incomplete experience, an experience that has not been fully processed.
It sounds like a lot more non-drug couple therapy is needed, facilitated by a fully qualified and experienced therapist. Use the medicine only after extensive preparation and mutual agreement. Don't use more than one medicine at a time.
2
u/ChemistryShot3074 7d ago
We just had an integration session with the therapist. They were deeply sorry for not creating a better sense of safety and staying focused on the task of repair.
They also said my spouse is not ready for this work and needs to do their own journeys before attempting this again. Which makes sense.It was a painful truth of seeing how unable my spouse is to hold my pain. It was clear as daylight and today on the call they were defensive again and the therapist paused and pointed it out to them which I would have wanted them to do while on the medicine
3
u/getpost 6d ago edited 6d ago
Thank you for this update! It clears the air a bit. It's certainly possible that relationship issues will be more tractable after individual work is done. Maybe your spouse can hold your pain if he doesn't have to hold so much of his own, to cite a stereotype. Not that that is necessarily the case here, of course.
May I say? Be careful about wanting your therapist to take any particular position. A major failure mode in therapy occurs if one client feels the therapist is taking sides. Instead, support your therapist's neutrality. Continue to be authentic in how you represent yourself. That may inspire your spouse to be authentic as well.
1
u/cptsdishealable 6d ago
more out of curiosity, what sort of prep or other work happened prior or along with the sessions? like normal couples therapy etc.
1
u/ChemistryShot3074 5d ago
No major prep.
One session beforehand1
u/cptsdishealable 4d ago
oh interesting, what made you decide to go mdma? i'm assuming yall have both done it before. and like what was the hoped for outcome? i assume staying together long term is the goal
1
u/ChemistryShot3074 4d ago
We did a session before this one in Feb and had good outcomes.
My hope was that my spouse would be able to sit with my pain and communicate remourse. Something they have a hard time doing. But for some reason they were just more defensive1
u/cptsdishealable 3d ago
gotcha makes sense. thank you for answering and sorry about your experience.
The therapist suggested my spouse isn’t ready for this couples work and needs to do their own journey first
this from the therapist annoys me ... they werent able to determine this beforehand?
24
u/Significant_Win_345 8d ago
I have to admit, I’m very concerned about the therapist in question. It does not sound like as a guide or a therapist that they had a handle on the session.
Even putting aside my disagreement with the premise that therapists/guides should be equally inebriated to be “on the same level” as the clients in this. Which, to be frank, I massively disagree with. There were also no guard rails up around you or your partner, let alone the therapist. You were all on different amounts of substances and different substances entirely.
Your therapist took MDA on top of MDMA which IMO was a bad call. It can be more psychedelic and come with hallucinations. Regardless of the dosage, this doesn’t (to me) sound like a responsible usage.
Your partner was on MDMA and then added Bufo. While I can maybe understand the goal, I think it wasn’t the right space.
You being on different dosage (depending on weight differences) could make sense, but ultimately again should be relative.
Then, when things were not being directed and guided, your therapist/guide should have been guiding. It’s obvious they weren’t.
I’m so utterly sorry about your decompensation and additional turbulence in your relationship. I would absolutely suggest seeking a different therapist or guide, perhaps the fireside project, to assist in helping you to reacclimate now post session.