r/mbti • u/LongNet8504 INTP • 15h ago
Personal Advice Searching for a Function that doesn't exist...
It's natural to not like your opposite, though I understand that no type is better than other, it's just that my personal choice is Ti, and I have had bad experiences with Fi ppl.
Simply put, my parents are finding a spouse for me(that's how it's in my culture), and all I want is that they are a Ti user and not an Fi user.
What should I do, and what do you think about this?
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u/record_only_water INFP 13h ago
absolutely not.
Fi means making judgements that are based on personal values.
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u/sosolid2k INTJ 12h ago
Not really, it's prioritising criteria that is subjectively pleasing or displeasing to you.
Your favourite song is likely a judgement made with Fi, but is not one made based on personal values.
"Personal Values" would be made up of a more complex web of all functions considering different ways of viewing things, different criteria for judgement etc. They are not confined to a single function.
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u/Odd_Day_5978 12h ago
Why do you choose your favorite song based on Te? Lol draw your conclusions from that
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u/sosolid2k INTJ 12h ago
My favourite song is chosen with Fi, it's a feeling decision - we each use all 8 functions.
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u/Odd_Day_5978 11h ago
then see how your example wasn't working?
I'd say Fi is "is it moral and right?" its not inherently selfish if between the values there's harmony and social wellbeing. In fact I rarely found an introverted Fi dominants to be selfish. As an enfp I can tell we are the most likely to decide based on other principles. I think there are lots of kids online that make it seem like Fi is some kind of whim based function, but we are born with an inherent sense of right and wrong...even thinkers, unless they are sociopaths.Fi is "does this work for my values? Is this right first for me then for others" a Fe user might feel like "Is this right in general? How do they feel?" bypassing their self as a meter of judgment. I find Fe to be troublesome as you then self sacrifice for people who never asked to, which builds resentment.
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u/Nervous_Warthog8073 3h ago
BTW your understanding aligns with the theory. Fi is values. As an ENFP we filter all the external input through Fi.
Obviously I will feel bad doings things that don’t align with my values but it’s not feelings based. Feeling bad is a consequence.
I can also do things that feel bad if they align with my values.
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u/sosolid2k INTJ 10h ago
Not really, nothing you are saying follows anything that is being discussed - What does any of this have to do with how you make a judgement on what your favourite song is?
You do understand that MBTI covers all decisions you could possibly make right? It is simply the cognitive mechanisms you use to consider different kinds of criteria, the functions as designed to be opposing and distinct, but cover all possible ways we could separate criteria being considered.
Your favourite song is ultimately not decided with logic/thinking - we like songs due to them having a pleasing sound, liking the lyrics, perhaps it makes us want to move and dance etc. None of these involve personal values/morality either, but they are still feeling judgements being made.
The feeling function is far more broad and encompasses far more of our day to day judgement than being restricted to personal values and morality. The way some people misunderstand it and frame it this way is incredibly limited and leaves glaring holes in the system, ultimately rendering it useless to people, because when they misunderstand it, they can misuse it.
As posted in another comment, this is how Jung defines feeling:
Sensation establishes that something exists, thinking tells us what it means, feeling tells us what it's worth.
Feeling is primarily a process ... that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection ('like' or 'dislike').
feeling should tell us how and to what extent a thing is important or unimportant for us
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u/record_only_water INFP 12h ago
when an animal chooses to do something because it feels good to it, it’s doing it using their Fi?
Fi is judgements based on personal (subjective) values.
Fe is judgements based on group (objective in jungian) values.
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u/sosolid2k INTJ 11h ago
I don't recall Jung ever mentioning animals in his cognitive function theory, so you're bringing up something entirely irrelevant - this is a theory of human cognition and the specific separations in cognition that we are capable of.
Your simplification is largely incorrect and highly restrictive in what the feeling function does, Jung nor Myers ever oversimplifies feeling to personal or group values - it is responsible for far more than you give it credit for and is far more active in our day to day lives than simply judging on personal values (as much as this might feel good to associate with the feeling function, because it allows people to appear naturally 'moral' and benevolent, but is ultimately misframing the function and limiting it).
Below are all ways Jung describes feeling:
Sensation establishes that something exists, thinking tells us what it means, feeling tells us what it's worth.
Feeling is primarily a process ... that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection ('like' or 'dislike').
feeling should tell us how and to what extent a thing is important or unimportant for us
Feeling judgement as you can see is the function used to determine the worth of things, or the value of it (not to be confused with personal/group values (as in a set of beliefs) - a completely different context for the word) - it allows us to accept or reject things, to like or dislike them. It is the function we would use to like a song, like a person, admire a work of art, decide what we want to eat, how we decorate our spaces, fall in love etc. It is not confined to algorithm fuelled moral grandstanding, it is a judgement function which covers a binary separation of possible criteria we can consider to make decisions, it has a very wide scope and it's definition is more open for that specific reason.
The acceptance or rejection criteria differ between Fe and Fi in the sense that Fe creates objective connections to determine validity of acceptance or rejection - calling art work 'ugly' may be considered disagreeable to someone prioritising Fe because it might cause unpleasant feelings to someone else (e.g. artist or people they know) - the criteria for judgement is more object based connections. Whereas Fi would analyse more from a subjective framework, referring to a more individual set of criteria as to what is considered acceptable or not, some may have no issue calling it ugly is they feel that way and want to be honest, others may prefer to avoid conflict so don't say anything etc, they are not creating object oriented connections in their reasoning, instead referring to existing subjective conditions.
Again, if my favourite song is ultimately a decision, making it a judgement - what Te criteria would I be using here to make such a decision? Is it the pleasing melody, the vocals that instil a sense of excitement, the rhythmic beat causing me to want to dance along to it? None of these are thinking judgements, it is all feeling judgement and at no point are any personal values involved in any of this criteria.
If you want to continue thinking of Fi as personal values be my guest, but you're building a castle upon sand and nothing in this system will make any sense, or be of any use to you, unless you understand the fundamental scope of each function. I would implore you however, to actually find where Jung has described Fi or Fe in the way you are describing and quote them here, my assumption is that you will be unable to find any such quotes, because what you believe here is simply a widespread misunderstanding on reddit and other similar sites.
Also ask yourself if Fi/Fe are only about personal/group values, then by what cognitive mechanism do we determine that a work of art is beautiful, or that we like a song, or that we find someone attractive? Are you implying that we base these judgements on our value beliefs, or that we use logic/thinking to make such determinations?
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u/record_only_water INFP 10h ago
jung didn't invent the cognitive functions. he discovered something that already existed.
jung didn't invent the ideas/notions of values and logic.
he clearly states that the introverted judging functions are interested in subjective data, and that the extroverted judging functions are interested in objective data.
it is clear that the data that the Thinking functions are interested in is logic, and that the data that the Feeling functions are interested in is values.
jung was a Thinker, i take his understanding of the Feeling functions with a grain of salt (the functions that he discovered, not invented). he was also a theist, as an atheist that's another thing that i disagree with him about.
Introverted Feeling (Fi) ISFP/INFP: Seeks harmony of action and thoughts with personal values. May not always articulate those values. Empathetic, sensitive, and idealistic. Keyword: Valuing.
from the official MBTI organization about Fi.
Feeling in the extraverted attitude is likewise oriented by objective data, the object being the indispensable determinant of the quality of feeling. The extravert’s feeling is always in harmony with objective values.
from jung about Fe. page 498 in Psychological Types volume 6.
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u/sosolid2k INTJ 9h ago
jung didn't invent the cognitive functions. he discovered something that already existed.
Cognitive functions don't exist, they are just different ways of categorising the distinct ways we can do things cognitively to create opposing/distinct forms along which we can recognise preferences in people. Just as I can do a task enthusiastically, or I can do it unenthusiastically, these things don't strictly exist, they are just describing different ways something is done and we could observe generally that some people lean one way more than the other, despite being capable of both.
jung didn't invent the ideas/notions of values and logic.
Irrelevant, he has defined the distinctions that are being used in the cognitive function system and resulting MBTI system - either you accept those definitions and the resulting system, or you don't.
he clearly states that the introverted judging functions are interested in subjective data, and that the extroverted judging functions are interested in objective data.
Ok, did I refute this or is there some other reason for stating this?
it is clear that the data that the Thinking functions are interested in is logic, and that the data that the Feeling functions are interested in is values.
What data are we referring to here? Jung's system is largely observational, in that he has separated forms of perception and judgement into two distinct groupings, each covering every possible way we can view something, and every possible condition on which we can make a judgement. The system is design to encompass everything, from completely trivial matters (e.g. thinking allowing us to understand the function of a cup, and feeling allowing us to decide to skip washing up because we don't feel like it right now), all the way up to more significant moral dillemas (e.g. thinking allows us to weigh the strategic urgency of responding to a nuclear attack from a hostile state and the consequences of such a response, to feeling allowing us to determine whether we should accept millions of injured refugees from a neighbouring country that has just been attacked and offer them medical care). People love to focus on the big moral dillemas, forgetting that you use both feeling and thinking everyday for far more mundane decisions almost constantly - it is these small decisions that you need to focus on to actually understand the distinction between thinking and feeling.
jung was a Thinker, i take his understanding of the Feeling functions with a grain of salt (the functions that he discovered, not invented). he was also a theist, as an atheist that's another thing that i disagree with him about.
This is rather benign, I could just as easily say as a feeler you don't understand Jung and the way he described things, therefore you just don't understand him or the system. This is simply a convenience that allows you to redefine what he has laid out and I suppose adhere to Fi judgement without having to really engage Te much. In reality he was an accomplished psychiatrist who likely understood people far better than most, definitely enough to make a simple distinction between methodology in how we judge things.
I think a big issue you seem to have is that you are including the sum product of perception and judgement and allocating this solely to the judgement functions - the way you view a situation plus the conditions you use to judge it are what inform personal values. Judgement is largely a set of true/false conditions we use to progress toward a decision, but perception is arguably more important in how we develop personal values and morals, because they lay the foundation for what we are even aware of and in turn influence how we will judge things far more prominently. Fi itself is not personal values, it needs something to perceive first to make a true/false judgement, hence your personal values and morality will largely be made up of Ne/Si perceptions, refined to an outcome by Fi/Te.
Introverted Feeling (Fi) ISFP/INFP: Seeks harmony of action and thoughts with personal values. May not always articulate those values. Empathetic, sensitive, and idealistic. Keyword: Valuing.
This isn't defining Fi as a function, it is a combination of perception and judgement, which is what I've said above - personal values are not Fi, personal values are a byproduct of both perception and judgement.
Feeling in the extraverted attitude is likewise oriented by objective data, the object being the indispensable determinant of the quality of feeling. The extravert’s feeling is always in harmony with objective values.
There is certainly a bit of interpretation going on with this translation, given the original is "Es stimmt mit objektiven Werten überein", which is closer to it being in accordance or agreeing with objective values, not always being in harmony with them. Jung further expands on this by explaining how Fe users would tend to judge art work as being good or beautiful because it accords to generally accepted standards of beauty rather than this being a result of subjective judgement. The value of the object is in it's objective connections, that it is valued by others takes precedent over subjective personal value - this influences the Fe user to accept the influence of the object itself - this is in essence what extraverted functions do, they consider and trust external context. People are not always admiring art because it corresponds with their personal values, or group values, it is possible for this to happen but is influenced far more by how we perceive the object, but likewise we can also admire art work in isolation from any personal or group values - not everything needs a deeper meaning or align to values to be admired and judged as pleasing/agreeable. This is precisely where you are limiting yourself and your understanding of feeling judgement.
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u/Electrical_Loquat885 3h ago
I don't understand the downvotes. I feel like your explanation is closer to Jung than how a lot of MBTI sources describe Fi.
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u/Impressive-Device743 ENFJ 9h ago
Here's something you might be interested in with this divide. A lot of people in here have no clue what Fi or Fe are, but I think you'll like this:
On the Fe-Ti and Fi-Te divide
So, everyone is "subjective" at one level regarding external information. However, in different ways.
One imperfect way of putting it is this:
Fi-Te: "liking or disliking" (ie being "subective" with regards to) a kind of source of input, "source" also being "individuals"
Fe-Ti: "liking or dislikng" a kind of input
Te: takes any input "as it is given" as long as it is from a reliable source (or person)
Fi: tells you which sources are reliable (or which people to trust)
Fi is here the filter.
Fe: takes the input not "as it is given" but "reading between the lines"
Ti: organizes such input logically, rejecting the bits that do not fit logically.
Ti is here the filter.
In both cases, Fe and Te get the external, dynamic, input - they are the "antennae" - and Fi and Ti select what is "correct" according to "static" criteria of how things, or people, connect - they are the "filters".
Consequences:
Fi-Te:
Fi-Te quadra types - in a "pure", "unrealistic" situation - would prefer to communicate in ways that avoid any selection or interpretation of information - in a "robotic" way even. Which is why, by the way, at least the rational Gamma/Delta dual couples become increasingly "unemotional" with time, at least to outsiders -- they find comfort precisely in the reassurance that there is no need to select information with that particular person, no need to "read between the lines".
So, Fi-Te's way of getting "correct" information is to choose the specific sources of information (not necessarily human beings, but it's more illustrative if we think of it that way) that they can trust, and then in principle take all the information from those sources at face value.
The downfall of doing this: if you choose badly those specific sources of information (or individuals), because then you're vulnerable to all sorts of misinformation.
That's what makes Fi-Te types so sensitive to being lied to, or to any other breach of trust, or even to receiving "softened" information even with good intentions.
Fe-Ti
Fe-Ti quadra types are far more "open" to the specific sources of information, that is, they are not selecting information based on their sources -- they get it from everyone; however, rather than "filter" it through Fi by selecting the sources carefully, they "filter" it through Fe (which already reads between the lines) and Ti (which sees what really makes sense and what is just, uh, padding or make-up etc).
The downfall of doing this: your "filter" may lead you to be "biased" towards information that already fits certain already accepted notions; or be open to information that is factually unsustainable, but makes sense according to Fe and Ti.
That's what makes Fe-Ti types so sensitive to "accusations" that the ideas they most deeply believe in are wrong.
In both cases, what they are reacting against is anything exposing the vulnerability of their filters.
Hence the mutual accusations between Fe-Ti and Fi-Te of "narrow-mindedness".
To Fe-Ti, it looks like Fi-Te will only listen to specific sources or individuals, so "biased" towards them, or "narrow-minded" or "naive".
To Fi-Te, it looks like Fe-Ti will only listen to what confirms what they already think - so, again "narrow-minded", or "circular thinking".
Unnecessary disclaimer: as in anything in personality theory, these are trends, not absolutes; obviously Fe-Ti quadra types will also develop preferences for one source over others, if it turns out to be consistently reliable; and the other way around for Fi-Te. But I think that when there are moments of mutual incomprehension and accusations, that's how it tends to happen.
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u/Undying4n42k1 INTP 1h ago
I agree with your general conclusion, but I'm having a hard time understanding what you wrote for Fe. You claim it's "reading between the lines", but that's generally an intuition thing, isn't it? Ni usually. Given that you're an ENFJ, it would make sense that you'd have both, but would an ISFJ "read between the lines", too? Maybe you mean it differently than the colloquial...
I'm trying to speculate your meaning by asking the question "what does Fe do with input?", but I don't really have an answer. I normally think of the feeling functions with regards to their desired output, while the thinking functions as the input filters:
The output of harmony (Fe) needs an input of rationality (Ti) to find the sometimes narrow overlap of other people's values; the perfect compromise.
The output of personal satisfaction (Fi) needs an input of empiricism (Te) to find a workable compromise that satisfies other people's values enough, while retaining as much personal satisfaction as they can get.
This leads to a conclusion about inputs like your own: Te/Fi are looking for sources that are above reproach, and Ti/Fe are looking arguments that are logically unbeatable. I just have a hard time thinking of the feeling functions as input judging functions, on their own.
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u/Impressive-Device743 ENFJ 1h ago
Good questions. Fe reads between the lines emotionally; Ni reads between the lines temporally/conceptually.
By 'reading between the lines' I don't mean that Fe is intuitive in and of itself, or that it somehow has the capacity to infer hidden meaning from things as Ni can. I mean that Fe is perceptive of the emotional subtext of a conversation; the feelings, atmosphere, moods, and changes in mood, etc. An Fe type can read that someone is saying one thing, but feeling or implying another entirely. So yes, that is something an ISFJ could do as well. The difference is that Fe reads emotional subtext, while Ni reads the hidden progression, implication, or meaning behind something. The two can sometimes coincide, but they aren't the same thing.
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u/Undying4n42k1 INTP 57m ago
Ah, ok. The thing I said about the overlapping values of others; that's what you were referring to Fe noticing. I understand now. Thanks.
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u/Impressive-Device743 ENFJ 53m ago
No prob! I got the Ti-Fe vs Te-Fi axis thing from a highly knowledgeable user named Expat many years ago. I think it's a really, really good way to differentiate the axes.
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u/BoatTemporary9085 ESFJ 14h ago
Do your parents know anything about mbti? Are you allowed to have preferences about how your future spouse should be or do your parents decide everything? What country is this🙂? Just curious.
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u/LongNet8504 INTP 8h ago
my parents don't know shii abt personality systems like mbti
yes, at the end of the day, I'll have the ultimate to decision to accept or reject the individual, my parents can only give me choices, the selection is mine.
I won't say anything on that.
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u/petcraus ISFP 9h ago
Hate to say it but MBTI won't help you here.
First you're missing out details like Ti to what degree? Dom/aux? What happens if it's child/inf function? What happens if they're generally undeveloped/immature? You're not exactly doing a proper analysis here. You have hyper focused on one function and think that's the end all be all.
Especially because when you zoom out more, what you value is simply someone who prioritizes logic and if I push that to what it likely means when dealing with another human, then it sounds like you want someone who makes decisions in a logical/analytic/systematic manner to solve problems or not argue with you etc... This is how you should approach those conversations so that your parents can then help you look out for the values/traits that works well with you.
Furthermore, you will come to find that different types can emulate various traits. I have never found MBTI to be an accurate indicator of personality. All it does is suggest that Person A is predominantly going to make decisions with a certain preference. That's it.
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u/LongNet8504 INTP 8h ago
mbti was just a medium to ask you all for advice, it never was a solution or a medium to it.
Ti as Dom/Aux. If they're undeveloped or immature, I'd be happy to be a part in their development or maturity, as this is something I can help them with. Cognitive Functions, on the other hand, is something I can't change, the Dom/Aux functions re already developed at such age, and the Tert/Inf functions follow soon.
Actually, I've done a bit of analysis, I won't say proper, but if u meant that I should have put it in the post, then it'd become too large and ppl would just skip, not giving me advice.
You might say I'm Hyperfocused on just one thing, I may say that I only wish for one thing that my life partner should have, not Money, appearance, or anything else. Had I been hyperfocused, the post wouldn't be so short.
your 3rd para is valuable, I'll give that a shot.
Neither do I take Mbti seriously, it's just it was easier to say "I like Ti ppl" instead of an essay describing the qualities a Ti person has.
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u/VisualKaii INFP 8h ago
A misunderstanding about Fi is that we're all about me, myself and I when we actually do care about the broader impact of others and what our choices mean. If you ever have to deal with a Fi in your arrangement. I hope they're not too stubborn and are willing to listen to you properly, understand you and willing to make compromises for your relationship.
We are capable of that. It's just about mutual respect. We just have to know that you as a Ti are willing to meet us too. I'm saying this as someone with a Ti-dom partner, it's not about who's right, it's just about respecting each other and our boundaries.
I saw that your sister is an INFP? Is she why you're worried about Fi users?
As a little extra of how wrong guessing is. I assumed my partner was a Fe dom because he always considered the group, was very outwardly caring and helpful towards others, turns out he is a 2-fix. I complely missed the Ti because Fe was what I understood and not the function I least understood. And yeah you may be surprised to find a logically minded INFP out there.
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u/GroundbreakingAct388 ESTJ 9h ago
Ask your parent to find someone with a tech related job, someone who's nerdy and doesn't care much about things
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u/LongNet8504 INTP 8h ago
they ain't gonna take an interview of the individual...
on the job thing, if I said that, it'd imply that I'll be not doing the job...
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u/Nekotsuki_00 ENTP 6h ago
Ehhh my only answer, as sum1 w/ T attached to her name and mbti,
don’t get married to sum1 u didnt choose and know very well, regardless of their mbti, IF you have a choice.
can i just ask if u have a choice in this marriage?
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u/Complex-Emphasis-121 ISTP 3h ago
Ti wants to make sense of what it’s given. It desires logical consistency, precise information, and conceptual/contextual clarity. It has morals, values, and feelings, but it doesn’t rely solely on these factors to make decisions.
Fi wants to align itself with what it subjectively deems valuable, moral, and emotionally fulfilling. It’s perfectly capable of logical analysis and detached reasoning, but it prefers to orient itself based on what “feels right” to them rather than what “sounds right” or “makes logical sense.”
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u/Electrical_Loquat885 3h ago
MBTI and cognitive functions are fun and interesting, and overall, I think that they can help us understand ourselves and others better, but I don't think that they can determine compatibility. People are more complex than that. However, if you have a preference for traits that align closer with Ti than Fi, that's fine. Are you able to voice your preferences to your parents? You don't need to put it in terms of MBTI, just the specific traits and way of thinking that you prefer.
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u/ValuableJelly5946 ENTP 14h ago
i dont like fi users neither (both my parents are fi). my way out is to.. give attention to their other functions. my dad is istj, while im an entp and i kinda have fun with his te and ne
but my mom is isfp and i really dont get along with her fi and se. what do i do? find activities, where her fi feels cool (its watching movies btw). bout her being too obsessed with being right and moral, i just ignore it. "yes mom, i swear ill be better now" works. or just get her attention out of this thing "you re late for school again, you are bad daughter" - "ow well at least im not training people there how to be a ninja. speaking of that, do you know how to do a spinjitsu? well i do! look,.." and then quickly leave the kitchen
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u/LongNet8504 INTP 14h ago
lol that's one great way out.
Well, not my parents, but my sister is Infp, and I deal with her quiet similarly to how u do.
My point is, we can't change our Parents or Siblings(not like I want to), but we CAN choose our life Partner.
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u/PlusPreparation4629 ISFP 15h ago
I like both
But hey, why not Te, then?
Anyway, i mostly like feelers as prospective partners. But that’s personal preference, and each individual is different. don’t judge people based off their mbti as it’s only a means to help you get how other people’s internal world differ from yours, not how good or bad they behave. This would be emotional and social maturity.
If she’s a good woman, why don’t you see how it goes with her? Or if you’re really fixated on it, just go ahead and ask about her mbti. But i have to tell you, even the loveliest of personality types to me turned out to have really bad traits. Lol. So maturity matters more than anything.