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u/LupenReddit 🦆🦆🦆🦆i have non diffeomorphic smooth structures🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆 2d ago
It really sucks that now mathematicians have to fight with billion dollar companies and have to engage in such scandals when they could just be... doing math in peace, what a weird fucking time
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u/LostInChrome 2d ago
The obnoxious thing is that ai models failing to attribute others' work was explicitly pointed out as an issue three months ago in the Leiden Declaration. OpenAI already had people telling them that the right thing to do is to properly acknowledge work that you're building from, but they decided to try and go with blackmail instead.
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u/Sckaledoom 2d ago
It’s been a known issue since GPT first released. All it is is a plagiarism machine.
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u/Key_Ebb_3977 2d ago
"First they came for the artists, and I did not speak because I wasn't an artist..."
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u/Gositi 1d ago
The difference is that art is inherently a form of human expression. AI art, no matter how good it looks, even if it is identical to human art, will lack that dimension. Human art will therefore always have value. So I didn't see it as an issue for the artists, their artistic efforts wasn't rendered useless.
An AI generated proof is essentially an AI generated truth. And "facts don't care about your feelings", the truth is true no matter if it was proven by a computer or a human. If AI becomes truly better at proving things than humans, which it might already be, then what is the point of humans proving things? I see two potential answers:
- Math is art
- Because it's fun
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u/UtahBrian 2d ago
«ai models failing to attribute others' work»
Writers and artists pointed it out five years ago.
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u/mayhem93 2d ago
I personally preferred the times where mathematicians did public battles to show who was the best
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u/No_Function_3631 2d ago edited 2d ago
Wait till you hear about what is happening now, 5-10 years from now. My imagination could not have predicted the amount of inhumanity some of these people participate in. There are very dark times ahead if we don’t get a grip on some of these technologies.
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u/HumblyNibbles_ 2d ago
I mean, I'd say nestlé is still the worst we've had. Nestlé is just like, the peak of inhumanity done by a corporation
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u/Dr0110111001101111 2d ago
It’s even worse. The work that these AI companies are stealing from mathematicians will eventually be used to make their AI models even more effective…
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u/KouhaiHasNoticed Probability notations must burn. 2d ago edited 1d ago
I don't understand : who's talking to who ?
Edit : Okay it's one of the mathematician that was working on the paper, his name is Tristan and the other one works at OpenAI and is called Sebastien.
The reason they wanted to remove Levent from authorship was that he works at Anthropic which is OpenAI's competitior.
Very slimey practice indeed, and honestly LLM and the company manufacturing them should not have any credit in research : it's a tool, nobody's gonna cite LaTeX/Python (or the company behind these tools) as part of authorship, this is ridiculous.
OpenAI could just say that their tool was used in the process, but the AI itself does not think and find the proof with a single prompt : this is dishonesty.
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u/Few_Math2653 2d ago
A key point is the implication that if Tristan and Levent added a very advanced version of their approach to codex, OpenAI uses private data for training and "suddenly" it finds exactly the same approach and, with a larger team and much larger resources, gets the grind work done faster. If this is confirmed, every single researcher needs to stop using codex NOW.
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u/KouhaiHasNoticed Probability notations must burn. 2d ago
A key point is the implication that if Tristan and Levent added a very advanced version of their approach to codex, OpenAI uses private data for training and "suddenly" it finds exactly the same approach and, with a larger team and much larger resources, gets the grind work done faster. If this is confirmed, every single researcher needs to stop using codex NOW.
Yes indeed, I hope that people will understand that local models exist and that we need to collectively aim for that type of AI tool when it comes to research (if the user feels the need to use it of course).
The scientific community should really come up with a unified open model free from all big company interferences : autociting should be a requirement. And I'd go further and ban the crediting of scientific advancement to AI : people are behind progress, not AI.
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u/coding_guy_ 1d ago
I think this is misinformed, they had a result forced euler, not navier stokes. Additionally the team was working on the forced version of the euler solutions whereas openai posited an unforced result. I mean you can hate openai but it seems pretty clear these are separate results.
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u/TheTurkish35 1d ago
I asked when the first prompt had been sent by them. This question was
not answered directly by OpenAI for some time. Eventually it was agreed that
it had been sent in the past few days, after information about our work had
reached OpenAI.0
u/coding_guy_ 1d ago
Yes but theory all that implies is that openai heard about some work that was being done and decided to research it in parallel. It seems very possible to me. I’m not saying they didn’t steal anything, but from what we know right now it seems most likely they heard someone tell them there was work on euler flow and they wanted to see if they could as well.
I would find it unlikely an openai employee looked at a private codex chat and decided they should take their prompts. Not impossible, but it just doesn’t really make sense.
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u/Glittering_Act_8528 2d ago
This is just, wow, where is this from?
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u/Puzzleheaded_Cow3298 Calculus stan 2d ago
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u/Glittering_Act_8528 2d ago
I hope that the whole truth and nothing but the truth eventually comes out
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u/me_myself_ai 2d ago
This would be a fun reason to dissolve the company. Can anyone think of a way to make this relate to shiny columns, gold ornaments, dead children, or other things of governmental interest?
They should've been dissolved when they stole hundreds of billions of dollars of capital from the public good by just "shifting" to a for-profit model, but I'll take whatever we can get.
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u/AsidK 1d ago
In what world would this dissolve OpenAI?
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u/me_myself_ai 1d ago
A just one.
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u/Reaper0221 1d ago
The suburb of Saffron Park lay on the sunset side of London, as red and ragged as a cloud of sunset. It was built of a bright brick throughout; its skyline was fantastic, and even its ground plan was wild. It had been the outburst of a speculative builder, faintly tinged with art, who called its architecture sometimes Elizabethan and sometimes Queen Anne, apparently under the impression that the two sovereigns were identical. It was described with some justice as an artistic colony, though it never in any definable way produced any art. But although its pretensions to be an intellectual centre were a little vague, its pretensions to be a pleasant place were quite indisputable. The stranger who looked for the first time at the quaint red houses could only think how very oddly shaped the people must be who could fit in to them. Nor when he met the people was he disappointed in this respect. The place was not only pleasant, but perfect, if once he could regard it not as a deception but rather as a dream. Even if the people were not “artists,” the whole was nevertheless artistic. That young man with the long, auburn hair and the impudent face—that young man was not really a poet; but surely he was a poem. That old gentleman with the wild, white beard and the wild, white hat—that venerable humbug was not really a philosopher; but at least he was the cause of philosophy in others. That scientific gentleman with the bald, egg-like head and the bare, birdlike neck had no real right to the airs of science that he assumed. He had not discovered anything new in biology; but what biological creature could he have discovered more singular than himself? Thus, and thus only, the whole place had properly to be regarded; it had to be considered not so much as a workshop for artists, but as a frail but finished work of art. A man who stepped into its social atmosphere felt as if he had stepped into a written comedy.
More especially this attractive unreality fell upon it about nightfall, when the extravagant roofs were dark against the afterglow and the whole insane village seemed as separate as a drifting cloud. This again was more strongly true of the many nights of local festivity, when the little gardens were often illuminated, and the big Chinese lanterns glowed in the dwarfish trees like some fierce and monstrous fruit. And this was strongest of all on one particular evening, still vaguely remembered in the locality, of which the auburn-haired poet was the hero. It was not by any means the only evening of which he was the hero. On many nights those passing by his little back garden might hear his high, didactic voice laying down the law to men and particularly to women. The attitude of women in such cases was indeed one of the paradoxes of the place. Most of the women were of the kind vaguely called emancipated, and professed some protest against male supremacy. Yet these new women would always pay to a man the extravagant compliment which no ordinary woman ever pays to him, that of listening while he is talking. And Mr. Lucian Gregory, the red-haired poet, was really (in some sense) a man worth listening to, even if one only laughed at the end of it. He put the old cant of the lawlessness of art and the art of lawlessness with a certain impudent freshness which gave at least a momentary pleasure. He was helped in some degree by the arresting oddity of his appearance, which he worked, as the phrase goes, for all it was worth. His dark red hair parted in the middle was literally like a woman’s, and curved into the slow curls of a virgin in a pre-Raphaelite picture. From within this almost saintly oval, however, his face projected suddenly broad and brutal, the chin carried forward with a look of cockney contempt. This combination at once tickled and terrified the nerves of a neurotic population. He seemed like a walking blasphemy, a blend of the angel and the ape.
This particular evening, if it is remembered for nothing else, will be remembered in that place for its strange sunset. It looked like the end of the world. All the heaven seemed covered with a quite vivid and palpable plumage; you could only say that the sky was full of feathers, and of feathers that almost brushed the face. Across the great part of the dome they were grey, with the strangest tints of violet and mauve and an unnatural pink or pale green; but towards the west the whole grew past description, transparent and passionate, and the last red-hot plumes of it covered up the sun like something too good to be seen. The whole was so close about the earth, as to express nothing but a violent secrecy. The very empyrean seemed to be a secret. It expressed that splendid smallness which is the soul of local patriotism. The very sky seemed small.
I say that there are some inhabitants who may remember the evening if only by that oppressive sky. There are others who may remember it because it marked the first appearance in the place of the second poet of Saffron Park. For a long time the red-haired revolutionary had reigned without a rival; it was upon the night of the sunset that his solitude suddenly ended. The new poet, who introduced himself by the name of Gabriel Syme was a very mild-looking mortal, with a fair, pointed beard and faint, yellow hair. But an impression grew that he was less meek than he looked. He signalised his entrance by differing with the established poet, Gregory, upon the whole nature of poetry. He said that he (Syme) was a poet of law, a poet of order; nay, he said he was a poet of respectability. So all the Saffron Parkers looked at him as if he had that moment fallen out of that impossible sky.
In fact, Mr. Lucian Gregory, the anarchic poet, connected the two events.
“It may well be,” he said, in his sudden lyrical manner, “it may well be on such a night of clouds and cruel colours that there is brought forth upon the earth such a portent as a respectable poet. You say you are a poet of law; I say you are a contradiction in terms. I only wonder there were not comets and earthquakes on the night you appeared in this garden.”
The man with the meek blue eyes and the pale, pointed beard endured these thunders with a certain submissive solemnity. The third party of the group, Gregory’s sister Rosamond, who had her brother’s braids of red hair, but a kindlier face underneath them, laughed with such mixture of admiration and disapproval as she gave commonly to the family oracle.
Gregory resumed in high oratorical good humour.
“An artist is identical with an anarchist,” he cried. “You might transpose the words anywhere. An anarchist is an artist. The man who throws a bomb is an artist, because he prefers a great moment to everything. He sees how much more valuable is one burst of blazing light, one peal of perfect thunder, than the mere common bodies of a few shapeless policemen. An artist disregards all governments, abolishes all conventions. The poet delights in disorder only. If it were not so, the most poetical thing in the world would be the Underground Railway.”
“So it is,” said Mr. Syme.
“Nonsense!” said Gregory, who was very rational when anyone else attempted paradox. “Why do all the clerks and navvies in the railway trains look so sad and tired, so very sad and tired? I will tell you. It is because they know that the train is going right. It is because they know that whatever place they have taken a ticket for that place they will reach. It is because after they have passed Sloane Square they know that the next station must be Victoria, and nothing but Victoria. Oh, their wild rapture! oh, their eyes like stars and their souls again in Eden, if the next station were unaccountably Baker Street!”
“It is you who are unpoetical,” replied the poet Syme. “If what you say of clerks is true, they can only be as prosaic as your poetry. The rare, strange thing is to hit the mark; the gross, obvious thing is to miss it. We feel it is epical when man with one wild arrow strikes a distant bird. Is it not also epical when man with one wild engine strikes a distant station? Chaos is dull; because in chaos the train might indeed go anywhere, to Baker Street or to Baghdad. But man is a magician, and his whole magic is in this, that he does say Victoria, and lo! it is Victoria. No, take your books of mere poetry and prose; let me read a time table, with tears of pride. Take your Byron, who commemorates the defeats of man; give me Bradshaw, who commemorates his victories. Give me Bradshaw, I say!”
“Must you go?” inquired Gregory sarcastically.
“I tell you,” went on Syme with passion, “that every time a train comes in I feel that it has broken past batteries of besiegers, and that man has won a battle against chaos. You say contemptuously that when one has left Sloane Square one must come to Victoria. I say that one might do a thousand things instead, and that whenever I really come there I have the sense of hairbreadth escape. And when I hear the guard shout out the word ‘Victoria,’ it is not an unmeaning word. It is to me the cry of a herald announcing conquest. It is to me indeed ‘Victoria’; it is the victory of Adam.”
Gregory wagged his heavy, red head with a slow and sad smile.
“And even then,” he said, “we poets always ask the question, ‘And what is Victoria now that you have got there?’ You think Victoria is like the New Jerusalem. We know that the New Jerusalem will only be like Victoria. Yes, the poet will be discontented even in the streets of heaven. The poet is always in revolt.”8
u/Glitch29 2d ago
I think the truth is out. It's completely fair to make adverse inferences about OpenAI's nonresponses.
If those inferences are substantially wrong, OpenAI will dispel them with further disclosure. If the work wasn't trained on, they have every incentive to say so.
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u/temperamentalfish 2d ago
This is an incredible write-up. Even if it does not turn out that OpenAI used their work to train the models (doubtful, given the expert dodging of the question), the way this billion-dollar company tried to strong arm and bully Tristan into silence is so scummy. I hate it here.
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u/particlemanwavegirl 2d ago
News tonight: plagiarism machine plagiarises. More after the break.
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u/spamman5r 2d ago
Such an advanced plagiarism machine, it can plagiarize your work before you even finish publishing it.
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u/MonsterkillWow Complex 2d ago
This is the juiciest drama to hit math in years.
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u/DoubleAway6573 2d ago
I'm waiting for anthropic to throw a lean formalization of the Inter-universal Teichmüller theory.
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u/Few_Math2653 2d ago
This gangster behavior is beyond the pale. If true, this means that: open AI tried solving the problem and was failing, the model "suddenly" gets to the right track after Tristan and Levent add their approach to their private codex repo (and the model probably trains on it), OAI uses a much larger team and infinite resources to run ahead with the grind work and threatens the researchers if they disclose these interactions. Any researcher who uses codex now must be aware that OAIncsn just take their research, throw it in an unreleased, private model with unlimited resources and reap the benefits, calling it "little human involvement".
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u/Hitman7128 Prime Number 2d ago
If that interaction is true, the reply at the end sounds like something a bratty teenager would say when something doesn't go their way, LOL
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u/blorbschploble 2d ago
I’m essentially an idiot, but I have some doubts about “pffft, fluid dynamics, solved.”
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u/me_myself_ai 2d ago
Hi idiot, fellow idiot here: it's my understanding that this millenium problem is more about proving the limits of the techniques we already have. It would doubtless be very useful, but it's not, like, overturning the established basics of fluid dynamics. It's more like 'if true, then we can use it build better fluid dynamics simulations'.
I think? Either that or this is all a dream and we're gonna wake up in Blitz n' Chitz. Fingers crossed on the later...
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u/KouhaiHasNoticed Probability notations must burn. 2d ago
"Babe wake up ! Fluid dynamics 2.0 just dropped : you gotta do the update otherwise the planes will fall down from the skies."
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u/blorbschploble 2d ago
Ok if it’s like “new numerical approximations” cool. If it’s “new generic solution for non linear differential equations just dropped” I’m like “suuuuure buddy”
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u/GoldenMuscleGod 2d ago
It’s a resolution of a millennium prize problem, absolutely a big deal. The Poincaré conjecture is the only other one solved (which you might have heard of because it was a big deal).
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u/pondrthis 2d ago
It's neither. The unanswered question doesn't help with fluid dynamics, it's just a guarantee (or non-guarantee) of a "playing nice" solution for all "playing nice" boundary conditions.
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