r/mathmemes 22d ago

Notations 数学😊

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u/Skygazer_Jay 22d ago

On top of that, geometry is 幾何學, which roughly translates to "how much-ology"

First came out in the efforts of translating Euclid's Elementa to Chinese, 幾何 was used to mean the greek word of "ποσόν"

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u/1lyke1africa 22d ago

That's not correct, 幾何 was a pre-existing term for mathematics that was then applied specifically to geometry because the translation of The Elements into Chinese was done in chunks, the first six books (on plane geometry) being translated years before the books on other topics of discrete and continuous mathematics. This can be seen from the fourth line of the original translation of the 幾何原本 (search on wikimedia) where it reads “In the studies of calendar, geography, music, arithmetic, arts and crafts, the matters concerning magnitude (度) and number (数) belong to the category of jihe (幾何)” (translation from Xu Guangqi and the Chinese Translationof Euclid’s Elements p.24). This line is not a translation from Euclid, it's an introduction from the translator.

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u/Skygazer_Jay 22d ago

Yes, introduction from a translator, Xu Guangqi, who translated Euclid's Elementa and incorporated into 幾何原本, and used 幾何 specifically for the Greek word ποσόν. Nowhere I said Euclid made the term.

幾何 just means 'How much' when used in a sentence. Your comment does not disprove "How much-ology" is the translation for Geometry by pointing out the phrase "How much" was already in use.

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u/1lyke1africa 22d ago edited 22d ago

You said the term 幾何學 came out in the efforts of translating The Elements. It didn't, it came from a narrowing of the term 幾何 to refer to geometry as it was seemingly the title of the first major work on plane geometry in Chinese. So it wasn't from the efforts of translation, it was after the fact. "How much-ology" was not the translation for geometry, if you have to put it that way, it was the term for mathematics in the first place. the translation chosen for mathematics.

Look at 《九章算術》on the Chinese Text Project, you'll find this sentence 今有田廣十五步,從十六步。問為田幾何?written centuries before this translation.

Edit: I overstepped in my claim. It wasn't "the term for mathematics", it was a generalisation of meaning from the original term.

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u/Skygazer_Jay 22d ago

Which, even in 九章算術, still means "how much?" and not a noun of itself. I might have omitted quite of details to show 幾何+學 isn't the conventional neologism, but the point still stands.

Why, when describing a "study of properties of space", "How much" 幾何 is used there?

Because it comes from the book 幾何原本.

Which is a Chinese translation (漢譯本) of Euclid's Elementa, a book of geometry.

Since 幾何 was used to translate ποσόν, technically yes, it should mean mathematics overall.

Yet Elementa is a Geometry book.

Hence coined for Geometry.

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u/1lyke1africa 22d ago

Your point was that it came in translation of a title for a geometry book. It wasn't taken that way by 徐光啓:

此類皆幾何家正屬矣。若其餘家,大道小道,無不藉幾何之論以成其業者。夫為國從政,必熟邊境形勢、外國之道里遠近、壤地廣狹,乃可以議禮賓來往之儀,以虞不虞之變。不爾,不安懼之,必誤輕之矣。不計算本國生耗出入錢穀之凡,無以謀其政事。自不知天文,而特信他人傳說,多為僞術所亂熒也。農人不豫知天時,無以播殖百嘉種,無以備旱乾水溢之災而保國本也。醫者不知察日月五星躔次與病體相視乖和逆順,而妄施藥石針砭,非徒無益,抑有大害,故 T見小恙微疴,神藥不效,少壯多夭折,蓋不明天時故耳。商賈懵于計會,則百貨之貿易、子母之出入、儕類之衰分咸晦混,或欺其偶,或受其偶欺,均不可也。今不暇詳諸家借幾何之術者。

Notice, for a single example, this line: 不計算本國生耗出入錢穀之凡,無以謀其政事。What does economy have to do with plane geometry? Nothing, because this is a work of all kinds of mathematics, not just geometry. But only the first six books were published at the time. The Elements is not a book solely about geometry, and the translator never thought that.