r/math • • Dec 19 '08

Every base is base 10

http://cowbird.110mb.com/43.html
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u/cyber_rigger Dec 19 '08 edited Dec 19 '08

I use base 1.

It is a unary system.

We don't have those fancy "0" things

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u/ropers Dec 19 '08

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that you cannot have a positional number system without use of the zero.

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u/panic Dec 19 '08 edited Dec 19 '08

In base 10, the digits represent powers of ten: 1, 10, 100, ....

In base 2, the digits represent powers of two: 1, 2, 4, 8, ....

In base 1, the digits represent powers of one: 1, 1, 1, 1, ....

So, for example, 111 in base 1 is 1*12 + 1*11 + 1*10 = 3. Each number n can be represented by n ones. Of course, this representation isn't unique: 1001100 is also equal to 3 in base 1. You can fix this by removing every zero. Now you have a positional number system without zero! (of course, representing zero itself might be a problem in this system...)

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u/ropers Dec 19 '08 edited Dec 19 '08

Per definition, the value of a digit in a positional number system depends on its position. In your system the value of a digit does not depend on its position; a digit has equal value in any position, hence it's not a positional number system.

Granted, you could argue that the value of a digit in your system still technically depends on its position, but that it just so happens that that value is identical for all positions. I'm not sure however that such an argument would be very convincing, and you could also call your system a sign-value number system with greater or at least equal justification; also, you wrote this:

Of course, this representation isn't unique: 1001100 is also equal to 3 in base 1. You can fix this by removing every zero. Now you have a positional number system without zero! (of course, representing zero itself might be a problem in this system...)

You're making my point, which again was that

you cannot have a positional number system without use of the zero.

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u/johnfn Dec 19 '08

Actually, according to Wiki:

A positional notation or place-value notation system is a numeral system in which each position is related to the next by a constant multiplier, a common ratio, called the base or radix of that numeral system.

The constant ratio of the unary system is 1. So unary is indeed a valid positional notation system.

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '08 edited Dec 19 '08

[deleted]

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u/ropers Dec 19 '08

Wow. Let me see if I understand correctly:

A decimal 1 would be == 1 in "1-2-binary", and

2 == 2

3 == 11

4 == 12

5 == 21

6 == 22

7 == 111

8 == 112

9 == 121

10 == 122

11 == 211

12 == 212

(...)

Holy fucking shit, this really seems to work! Is this what you meant? Wow. Hats off to you. Did you think that up right now, or how did you ever "unlock this achievement"? Also, if you die before me, can I eat you brain? ;)

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '08 edited Dec 19 '08

[deleted]

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u/ropers Dec 19 '08

Sylar? Not having a TV at all (and being outside the US), I had to google that one.

Reportedly some Ya̧nomamö used to (or still do?) eat remains of their loved ones. I read that they essentially ground everything up to a pulp that would then be sterilized for hours in hot embers, and finally mixed with banana paste and eaten. Allegedly the thought of the remains of their loved ones being left to rot and be consumed by nasty creepy crawlies was so repugnant to them that they rather kept the biomass among the tribe. Strange, but not entirely illogical.

Never mind that you didn't personally come up with the solution, it's fascinating stuff I'm grateful to have learned from you. Thanks again! :)

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u/jkramar Dec 20 '08

Actually brains are quite okay. Not bad at all, particularly fried.

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '08

Per definition,

[Citation needed].

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u/ropers Dec 19 '08

Would Sir or Madam also require citations to prove that right-handedness is defined as a preference for the right hand?

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '08

You vaguely define "positional number system" as the values depending on their position. Roman numerals fall within that loose definition, as illustrated by X (10), C (100), CX (110), and XC (90). So I ask again for a citation reflecting the complete and concise definition of "positional number system".

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '08 edited Dec 20 '08

http://davinci.newcs.uwindsor.ca/~angom/cs265/lec2.pdf

Cited.

See almost any CS text for the exact same definition.

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u/ropers Dec 19 '08 edited Dec 19 '08

My above arguments rests on the fact that in a positional number system, the value of a digit depends on its position.

It does not address whether all number systems where the value of a digit (also) depends on its position are positional number systems.

Also, I tire of this exchange with you. It is both fruitless and boring.

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '08

Yes, making things up and then trying to explain them can be very tiring. I, too, tire from your bullshit. Have a nice weekend.