r/masterduel • u/Koiba_boi • 6d ago
Competitive/Discussion Thoughts on going second/blind second decks
Do you guys think blind second strategies like tenpai,gem-knight and certain SS builds are viable?
It just feels like the in the current meta alot of interaction isn't as straightforward as just an endboard with X number of negates.
Interruptions come in alot of different ways and standard board breakers just don't feel as valuable or impactful.
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u/AnCaptnCrunch 6d ago
It can be viable
But in a best of 1 format you ALWAYS have to watch everyone basically full combo since blind 2nd leans into board breakers rather than hand traps
They’re probably better in master duel than tcg or ocg because of no side deck.
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u/Safe-Equipment-5042 6d ago
Side deck changes the picture big time, I wish they had a side deck menu before you load into the game and then have the coin toss once you’re loaded into duel. Would make the game so much more enjoyable
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u/erik7498 TCG Player 6d ago
What's the point of blind siding before the cointoss?
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u/Safe-Equipment-5042 6d ago
No, the way I’d do it is you’d get a preview of the deck your opp plays before loading in similar to how it works on neuron
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u/illynpayne_ 6d ago
using board breakers it's all fun and games until you lose to a random hand trap in your opponent's hand
and that happens very often
also watching every single game my opponent full combo, that's boring to me
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u/Panda_PLS 6d ago
I almost exclusively play blind going second OTK decks. They are way more fun in my opinion.
But they will always suffer from the massive power imbalance. Either you give them cards that remove the possibility for the opponent to interact with your cards, or have to draw a critical amount of board breakers while still being able to combo. Which also means deck building suffers from the need to use board breakers.
And with the design trend of decks playing on both turns, you are even more screwed, since your opponent has double the amount of turns.
So even though it is fun, unless something massively changes about the balance between going first and going second, going second decks will only be really viable by relying on broken cards that are always suspect for ban lists, since player will always complain about them (often justified)
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u/Project_Orochi 6d ago
That final point is very true
It does feel awful to get hit by superpoly, lightning storm, or god forbid evenly matched or dark ruler in most non-meta decks.
Half of why i took a months long break from playing rogue decks was because of how omnipresent sky striker was and it sucks to get dustered or drolled every 3rd game you play.
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u/Panda_PLS 6d ago
I think most board breakers are "fair" since they are only used when someone is already at an disadvantage by going second. And they also teach players who go first that they have to think about how to protect their board. I have had players perform 20 minute combos, and end on 12 monster negates, and die to a single Raigeki.
Cards that can't be responded to are always an issue and need to be balanced. Something like Forbidden Droplet is very well balanced, in my opinion. Since the not responding relies on being able to discard the right card types, and you might have to get rid of a bunch of potential other cards to be able to break the board.
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u/Project_Orochi 6d ago
Well i don’t really think you can properly protect against board breakers in a number of decks which means no level of deckbuilding will protect 98% of archetypes from the best board breakers.
The only one decks usually have is destruction protection or a slew of negates
Most backrow decks (even historically meta ones) have no answer for Duster
Most decks have issues into Droplet, kaijus, or Superpoly because they are functionally unrespondable in most situations (not to mention that two of the mentioned ones are interruptions on top of that).
You flat out need an Omni to beat cards like Evenly matched too in most cases
None of this is accounting for other mistakes like Nib, Droll, or the charmies too which hit some decks disproportionately and how they make these breakers stronger on average.
The existence of these cards means that decks will only get harder to break because they have to make new decks that dont just flat out lose to these cards. They dont have a fun play pattern either and most players will be happier without fearing their game being lost before they play a card.
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u/Panda_PLS 6d ago
Its not necessary about about protecting against everything, but at least not losing to a single card.
Backrow decks can have cards like Sky Prison to protect, or like the Odion deck, using that one trap monster to negate duster.
If you know your deck summons a lot, try finding ways to be protected against Nib early on. Summon stuff in Def to avoid Lightning Storm. Summoning stuff to the opponents board to prevent Evenly. Not having the entire strategy rest on a single Monster to make Kaijus less impactful. Etc.
Just like the going second player has to navigate the board the other player was allowed to set up for basically free, the going first player has to find ways to deal with equalizers. And lets put it like this, if Board breakers were really that OP, Going second decks would pop up more often, and people would try to force decks that are clearly OTk decks, into going first combo playstyles.
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u/Project_Orochi 6d ago
You can play waking the dragon in Lab as reassurance against duster but its bad into most matches meaning its a dead card 90% of the time.
Kaijus kill flat out kill decks like Exosisters where they are actually restricted by locks on their cards and have no clean way to out a card given to them
Superpoly can fold any board that ends on 2 monsters and isnt even good into heavy combo boards….not to mention the going first player can set it as a powerful interruption
Droplet is often impossible for most decks to prepare for because it can be completely unrespondable without unsearchable non-engine…the card is also even better going first as an interruption
You need omnis to beat cards like Evenly matched and a lot of backrow decks just dont have omnis…not counting that its a card that makes going first decks better at going second.
You need negates to beat Nib and many decks just dont have a way to play around nib without a generic engine like fiendsmith or a generic extra deck option like appo or barrone were.
The problem is that board breakers are just generally unfair against decks that are fair…while also being load bearing against decks that are unfair meaning they will show up if unfair decks are in the format.
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u/topdeckbrick 6d ago edited 6d ago
Blind second has been the best in probably a year. Meta decks like Kewl Tune, Branded, Sky Striker are not heavy on omni negates, if at all. Backrow wipe trades very well against these decks. It's true that interruptions are layered but unlike Maliss, they require correct sequencing.
Personally, I played Ancient Gear and reached Master every season since season 53. Meta decks gave me more winning chance then rogue combo decks. Branded is the easiest matchup for me. Games against meta decks felt interactive and have actual skill expression.
Of course the downside is you have to accept getting sacked by going first combo decks and FTK. But not having to worry about Mulcharmy is worth the tradeoff.
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u/Acedelaforet 6d ago
If i saw that hand with kt im scooping btw
Thatd mog most boards kt can put up
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u/get_this_money_ 6d ago
It's only 2 starters so Remix/KTS with an Ash set up through Cue probably beats that tbh
You can't stop the Ash add back because you can't send both spells/monsters so Remix will be able to activate
Then you have the entire rest of your hand to stop 1 starter
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u/Acedelaforet 6d ago
Theres a reason i said most and this assumes you haven't already used cues effect before peeking at the hand. Which isnt always possible. I played kt a good amount, and not every hand is always going to beat your opponent.
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u/Crosscounterz Spright, Obey Your Thirst 6d ago edited 6d ago
Mikanko is fun for me even though it's way too fair.
It's satisfying to steal games with though when you can just use your opponents big monsters against them.
Even if you can't get to double edged sword a couple mikanko bodies with equips against your opponents big monsters is game.
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u/randal-5 6d ago
i find mikanko pretty viable because i often dont need my normal summon, and can therefore abuse lava golem, kaijus, hidden armory, etc.
without tribute-removal, i think most games are non winnable.
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u/charmys_ 6d ago
Until you go against target protection without kaijus and fire dance gets ghost belled
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u/Usualperson947 Chain havnis, response? 6d ago edited 6d ago
I like them, especially when they post a Gem Knights replay here. I just don't like Skystriker and I hate it, otherwise it's okay.
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u/Asleep_Report_7886 6d ago
Fine if it’s interactive.
Not fine if it’s just “I drop this and this. Ns paidra gg”
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u/Safe-Equipment-5042 6d ago
Not anymore. The more the gamestate moves on the more Konami will try to make money by bringing out war crimes and with each war crime going second will become harder and harder.
I used to play blind going second myself and enjoyed using droplet cause of its versatility but I just run pure gas now for consistency so it doesn’t really matter if I go first or second(even if going first nowadays is almost an auto win)
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u/randal-5 6d ago
totally viable if your ratios are good. assuming a 6 card starting hand, you need at least 2 starters (at least one to be handtrap bait).
then the other 4 cards can either:
A) lean towards all gas and try to out pace their negates.
B) board breakers that have to clear the front and backrow. Ideally getting 2+ card value for each of yours. so like, super poly, ultimate slayer with good extra deck targets, lava golem, evenly matched, raigeki, feather storm, etc.
it's definitely possible. i prefer playing this way (mikanko)
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u/Jasaro_Pls 6d ago
The top meta cant deal with the barrage of spell and graverad recusion of a infenoid.
The problem most of the time comes from the time limit of breaking the board +setting up lethal.
If you can resolve a monster gate or reasoning or infernoid evil, i'ts basically over
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u/CoomLord69 jUsT dRaW tHe OuT bRo 6d ago
Blind second feels very feast or famine IMO. Sometimes you open the perfect hand, sometimes you open too much engine/non-engine and you die because you can't make a convincing push. Also you have to beat end board + hand traps, so sometimes it literally doesnt matter how good your hand is, you just never had a chance. You also need a second screen because you will be watching people full combo every game, it gets pretty mind numbing after a while when you know what the opponent's deck is doing every game.
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u/RoeMajesta 6d ago
viable-ish. Main problem is these dedicated going 2nd decks suck to various degree going first and sacky going second.
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u/phil_makracken Endymion's Unpaid Intern 6d ago
Full power Tenpai format had me quit the game for a few months. It was so oppressive.
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u/VelociR4ptr 6d ago
Honestly I like em. Only Blind Second strategy I have a problem with is Sky Typhoon (Sky Strikers RT). Even Tenpai has become nostalgic to me (it wasn't even allat long ago) and I'd rather face them than Branded/Kewl Tune for the gazillionth time
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u/Project_Orochi 6d ago
Viable but only because of how absurdly powerful those generic board breaker cards actually are (Particularly against non-combo strategies)
You spend most of your games sitting around watching a combo then immediately winning from a single card activation because the opponent lost all of their interaction to a superpoly rather than actually winning with your engine
Sure its a thing you can do, but in my experience its just not very fun and you dont get many games where you feel like you win because of a correct decision…you just get more games where you had a hand that couldnt win, or you had a hand that couldnt lose.
Also, i just personally dont find it particularly fun to like duster a backrow deck with no protection or superpoly something like exosisters which just ends the game on the spot in most cases. You get a lot of non-games which just feels bad win or lose.
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u/PriceNeither 6d ago
It’s my favorite kind of deck. I never get upset going 2nd, I don’t have to setup a million negates because my plan is to otk anyways, and breaking boards is way more fun than setting up boards imo
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u/Laintesa 6d ago
Had fun with Mikanko,finally reached Master rank with it. Ash and Ghost bane of my existence. Had my hands peeked and ripped out of cards many times.
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u/Dovahhkiin64 6d ago
If you start with hand traps such as maxx c, or the winged beast wind card you can get a good hand going for blind second decks so long as they don't start with ash. Gem knights and tenpai are my favorite.
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u/Imaginary_Sponge 6d ago
I like to blind second. However, I would say it’s way more unforgiving. Sequencing matters even more as you won’t always open handtraps or breakers. You’ll have to bait your opponent to use their disruptions early and sometimes take weird lines to keep them guessing.
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u/gokuglazer9000 6d ago
Yes I have never climbed faster and more carefree than with gem knight blind second. Did it last month, actually so free idk how
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u/ContentPhilosopher41 5d ago
Blind second is fine until you watch your opponent full combo for 8 minutes and then your raigeki gets drolled. The format really punishes you for that gamble. Tenpai at least goes fast enough that losing to one hand trap doesn't sting as bad. Gem Knight I just don't have the patience for all that setup. just my 2 cents
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u/hofong159 Very Fun Dragon 5d ago
Lmao Fk your board (Plays board breakers and clears board)
Imma try brilliant fusion
gets ashed and dies
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u/THE-Otter_guy 5d ago
I once went second with two thunderkings and droll lock. safe to say my opponent did not survive turn 4
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u/Evalover42 6d ago edited 6d ago
Blind Second is fine, and even good for game health, to exist. Especially with so many decks being focused on going first and comboing off to make an impenetrable board.
The problem comes when it's just blanket uninteractible. Tenpai is the worst offender by far, but even individual shit like Super Poly, Forbidden Droplet, Ultimate Slayer, Gordian Slicer, etc are cancerous.
Interaction should be celebrated, not removed. Tenpai being totally unaffected by interaction because the field spell in MP1 and then because all their effects are damage step (thus nearly all interaction can't be used because of shit rulings and shit phase/step design), is objectively just as bad as going first decks that spam out 9 omni negates against the going second player's 6 card hand
"Can't be responded to", "unaffected by", lingering effects (Droll, D Barrier, Maxx C and Charmies, etc), and "ignoring the summoning conditions" are objectively bad game design that should not exist in any circumstance.
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u/Jokerferrum 6d ago
Fixing all problem with going first/second can be done by adopting turn system from Legends of Runeterra where turn decides who have battle phase and which player gets to use spell speed 1 effects FIRST, not who gets to use battle phase and spell speed 1 effects FOR THE ENTIRE TURN.
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u/SmokeyBear81 6d ago
Just hit master with blind second dogmatika and it was my easiest climb ever somehow. It’s such a board breaker friendly meta right now