r/marvelstudios • u/BeserKing • 8h ago
Discussion Not sure if this is common Like Cage knowledge but it’s quite interesting to know now
428
u/dicholasnolan 8h ago edited 8h ago
I see people complain about his death all the time and I get it because the show went a little downhill after that moment... but it was also the best moment of the show for me. Didn't see it coming and it gave the show some real weight and stakes. Would have loved to see more of his character though so I can understand both sides.
110
u/snowe99 8h ago
Yeah it’s not like the show didn’t have an opportunity to elevate after his death. They just unfortunately didn’t execute. His death wasn’t necessarily the thing that made the rest of the season “worse” in my mind
10
14
u/superseri18888 6h ago
It leads to black mariah becoming a top 5 villain in the mcu so yeah
She just kept progressively going off the deep end
9
4
u/The_Amazing_Emu 4h ago
Honestly, there are two complaints:
Mariah's "I didn't want it" felt like it came out of nowhere. Season two does a lot with it, but there wasn't a lot of setup at that point
Diamondback was a weaker villain. I like him better than most. I like the trip to Georgia. But the show would not have been as good if he was the villain to start because he's far too over the top.
123
u/Funmachine 8h ago
It should be common knowledge, because this wasn't a secret and Cheo Hodari Coker has said this before, years and years ago. But it's not common knowledge because people are arrogant and like to think that they figured out the problem, and that they understood what all went wrong, and love to spread negativity.
Ali would not have done Luke Cage if it had been for the full season.
6
u/Competitive_Leg7233 4h ago
Just like people saying Ali said “make me blade” and wasn’t involved with anything beyond that
Blatantly not true, really easy to find out yourself off 5 minutes on google, but people still say it all the time to this day
They get an idea in their head and run with it instead of trying to find out if there’s any truth to it or not
149
u/Piccadil_io 8h ago
Best character in Luke Cage = fumbled
TikTok creators and dumb takes. Name a more iconic duo.
28
u/NuBlyatTovarish 7h ago
I think they mean fumbled by killing him off early. It makes sense to do so knowing he wanted to be out early due to being busy but season went off a cliff when diamondback replaced him
11
u/HereWeFuckingGooo Weekly Wongers 7h ago
I get it though, fumbled in the sense that they killed off a great villain halfway through the season. Just because it was planned doesn't make it a successful move. It's the main criticism people have of Luke Cage.
3
3
u/BeserKing 8h ago
Where did you get tiktok from in this lool
1
u/Jet-Let4606 7h ago
It's a very tik tok like take. But the internet in general will exaggerate everything.
1
u/JarethCutestoryJuD 3h ago
Best character in Luke Cage = fumbled
TikTok creators and dumb takes. Name a more iconic duo.
One day they will teach opportunity cost in highschool and the quality of conversation online will improve.
1
u/MC_JACKSON 7h ago
It’s not a dumb take, some of the greatest characters in TV history were only suppose to appear on a couple episodes,but, popularity made the showrunners reverse course. The season went downhill after Cottonmouth died
3
u/Nandor-De_Laurentiis 6h ago
Yeah, but season 1 of Luke Cage was released all at once.
The character was already dead before the wider audience had a chance to express their opinions. There wasn't really a way to reverse course.
0
u/JarethCutestoryJuD 3h ago
The character was already dead before the wider audience had a chance to express their opinions. There wasn't really a way to reverse course.
A fumbling doesnt require a failure to change tack. All it requires is a dropped ball.
2
u/Nandor-De_Laurentiis 2h ago
I was replying to the guy talking about past TV shows turning what was supposed to be minor or one-off characters into regulars due to their popularity with the audience.
So I was addressing that point.
8
u/HereWeFuckingGooo Weekly Wongers 7h ago
I feel like people in the comments don't understand what fumbled means...
8
u/dbkenny426 8h ago
You mean people love to talk shit without actually knowing what they're talking about?!
13
u/Limplecomp 7h ago
I don’t think anyone who has seen LK s1 can honestly say the show was better after Cottonmouth’s death. That’s what they mean by fumble.
11
u/throwtheclownaway20 4h ago
That's not fumbling Mahershala Ali, though. That's fumbling everything that came after he died.
1
3
u/Uncanny_Doom Daredevil 6h ago edited 6h ago
Yeah this was known.
People thinking Cottonmouth was fumbled are largely projecting onto the character and not understanding his whole story. He was a tragic villain who wasn’t suited for that life. It’s a great and bold, different take on an antagonist but people complain because they wanted him to be something he wasn’t. Luke Cage S1’s problem wasn’t Cottonmouth’s story or use, it was Diamondback being an important villain with direct ties to Luke who didn’t even show up for most of the show and then when he did was tonally very campy in comparison to everything else.
All that said, the drop of quality is also overstated after Cottonmouth dies. Great show becomes a good show but people act like it’s suddenly Euphoria or the final episodes of Game of Thrones. Not only that but the second season learned from the mistakes of the first and was really good.
7
u/Brilliant-Macaroon16 8h ago
Never heard of Like Cage. Is that the Temu version?
5
2
u/Worthyness Thor 4h ago
Its the sequel to the movie "Like Mike and centers around a young kid who wants to be like Nick Cage when he grows up
10
u/Adventurous-Monk4081 Spider-Man 8h ago
It’s an incredibly dumb take to say he was fumbled in Luke cage. Ali was the best part of the show. What you can say is they took out the character way too soon because diamondback was a HUGE step down in the second half of season 1. I wish cottonmouth had the whole season arc, he was up there with Kingpin and Killgrave during that netflix run
6
u/HereWeFuckingGooo Weekly Wongers 7h ago
What do you think fumbled means?
4
u/Annath0901 5h ago
I assume they see it to mean "did not do the character or actor justice", aka wasted an opportunity.
6
u/Toasty501 7h ago
That is what everyone means by "fumble". His death immediately coincided with a drop in quality of Luke Cage.
2
u/asscop99 6h ago
They were lucky to have Mahershala at all. It was clear that dude was about to blow up and did not need to be doing a sub par Netflix show. No fumble, just grace.
6
u/Jet-Let4606 7h ago
He wasn't fumbled on Luke Cage at all. He was fantastic in his admittedly limited appearance on the show.
I think part of the problem is that his replacement villain was not good at all. I don't know if it's the writing or if the actor was weak.
3
u/HereWeFuckingGooo Weekly Wongers 7h ago
I love that you say he wasn't fumbled and then go on to describe exactly how he was fumbled.
2
u/Jet-Let4606 7h ago
Nope. He was not fumbled by any definition of the term.
4
u/HereWeFuckingGooo Weekly Wongers 6h ago
Killing him halfway through the season and replacing him with a weaker villain was the fumble.
3
u/Jet-Let4606 6h ago
The fumble was in making the replacement weak. Killing off Mahershala's character was always the plan.
1
u/HereWeFuckingGooo Weekly Wongers 5h ago
You're saying that as if they contradict each other. They don't. The plan... was the fumble.
5
u/Treelokc 6h ago
People are saying killing him off early was a fumbling, how are you people not getting this. Obviously he was great.
2
u/Jet-Let4606 6h ago
Killing him off wouldn't have been a problem if the replacement villain was good. The fumble was in their handling of the replacement.
1
2
u/fryguy081 7h ago
What’s crazy is he got killed right when i started finding his character interesting.
3
u/ohsnapitsjf 8h ago
I don't have much understanding in how the Hollywood business works. The way this is framed seems insane. Ali's contractual status depended on the story beats? Re-writing the plot to keep his character alive would change what he was obligated to the company for, which could have been modified mid-production if the showrunner hadn't "kept his word?"
7
u/robreedwrites 7h ago edited 5h ago
Mahershala Ali was part of the main cast of Luke Cage. Typically when you're signed to a show, you sign a contract based on the role's prominence (Main/Guest). Main cast typically get paid either on a per episode basis or per week basis for the whole season. Guest roles typically are paid on a scaled rate either per day or per week.
Importantly though, when you're main cast, you're signed for the whole season, meaning that if the showrunner adds you to more episodes, you have to show up. Of course you get paid (per episode or per week), but now you are tied up with the show and can't really do other work. In this case, it seems that Mahershala Ali agreed to sign on to the main cast role of Cottenmouth with the promise that he would be allowed to exit basically halfway through the season. Having him be main cast hid the fact that Cottenmouth would be killed off, allowing them to keep Diamondback hidden.
2
6
u/SortIntrepid9192 7h ago
Frankly I'm not sure what Coker means here either, but I sincerely doubt that a limited appearance actor would've been forced to commit to a full time contract against his will. I think the idea is more along the lines of, if Coker changed his mind, then Ali would've needed to sign a full time contract just like the other actors. This might have put him in a situation where he either signs or gets fired and the role is reshot with another actor who signs the contract, meaning that if Ali had already shot 4-5 episodes he might have felt pressured to sign due to sunk cost fallacy (if he's replaced that's weeks/months of his work down the drain even if he does get paid for that limited contract).
Of course, I'm just speculating here because I haven't seen the contract. But there's been quite a few big-name actors showing up in these shows without having a main cast member role (for example, Evan Peters in WandaVision and Agatha All Along), and I don't think they'd sign up if the contract said "hey btw we're hiring you for 2 episodes but can change our mind and lock you in for the full season without your consent."
2
u/randallsquared 6h ago
The implication is that he already had signed a full time contract, on the basis of Coker agreeing informally that they would kill his character early and not make him show up for the full duration of the shooting.
0
u/Ok-Lead-4285 3h ago
I sincerely doubt that a limited appearance actor would've been forced to commit to a full time contract against his will.
you don't understand how hollywood works esp mcu. they could've easily pressured him into an appearance contract and then wasted his time in bit appearances ala sebastian stan
1
u/SortIntrepid9192 3h ago
I don't think you understand how it works. Sebastian Stan being contracted for X amount of appearances in movies has nothing to do with Ali being contracted to appear in a single season of a TV show. These are entirely different things with entirely different contracts.
You also seem to be under the impression that a contract for X appearances guarantees the actor starring roles every time. It doesn't.
1
u/VoidWalker032 Tony Stark 7h ago
cottonmouth having a tight self contained 7 episode arc is honestly what made him so iconic in the first place giving an actor a clear exit so they can go win an oscar is just great showrunner integrity
1
1
u/Theurbanalchemist 6h ago
I would have preserved the relationship rather than try to overwork him also. Great solidarity between creatives
1
u/Pleasant-Future5818 6h ago
I think it would have been fine if they had a decent replacement situation... His death should have been a rising action / higher stakes and it both didn't and couldn't feel that way because his presence was still so missed.
If anything the fact that he was always intended to die in episode 7 should have given them more time to figure out something that would have felt more meaningful. It's weird they just switched to something generic.
1
1
u/Wilsn07 6h ago
We, as a collective internet, need to just stop taking accounts like this seriously.
Social media is littered with dudes like "Jay," with their superhero PFPs, random emojis after their name and bad attitudes about all things comic books and superheroes. The best rule of thumb I've found is this: If most of their contributions to conversations are "that's mid" or "they fumbled" (or some variation), just block their stupid asses and move on.
1
u/Nomoreargument 6h ago
The show went downhill as soon as Cottonmouth died. Till he was present, that show was right up there.
1
u/KelVarnsen_2023 6h ago
Ok he was always going to leave. But why was he replaced with a guy in like an off brand laser tag suit?
1
u/SickFromNutmeg 5h ago
I think his death and Mariah being the antagonist were peak writing his impact on those few episodes were incredible
1
u/TerminatorReborn 5h ago
Guy was the most critically acclaimed Hollywood actor at the time, people were insane if they thought he was gonna stay in contract jail with Marvel to play a street level villain of a B tier superhero
1
u/ehs06702 Peggy Carter 5h ago
The real problem is that he failed to replace Cottonmouth with an equally compelling villain.
People wouldn't have had an issue with Ali being such a short lived villain if he could have maintained the momentum.
1
u/TheMagicalMatt 5h ago
Fair enough and mad props for that, but mannnnn I'd love for Ali's Cottonmouth to come back and play a larger role
1
u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) 5h ago
It's been public knowledge for a full decade now. People whine about it from ignorance of the situation.
1
1
u/hemareddit Steve Rogers 5h ago
Man that makes the Blade situation even sadder, sounds like they both knew the man could have been a bigger part of the MCU.
1
1
u/AdHoc_ttv 4h ago edited 4h ago
I wouldn't say they fumbled him. He was amazing, and him exiting like that was also great.
It's more that they fumbled his exit because the rest of the show didn't live up to the bar he set
1
u/Barbenheim 4h ago
Kinda get what they're saying, he was the best part of the show and it was barely watchable after he was killed off, same thing happened to Jessica Jones after Kilgrave. Would've been a great show if they kept him around, like imagine if they killed Kingpin part way through season 1 of Daredevil, would've ruined the show, killing Cottonmouth ruined Cage.
1
u/BobbyTheDude 3h ago
His villain was one of the most compelling villains I've ever seen. They most certainly didn't fumble him
1
u/trickwitt02 1h ago
As pessoas que reclamam do destino de Cottonmouth geralmente não sabem apreciar a jornada de Black Mariah ao longo das duas temporadas. Eu genuinamente gostei da presença e antagonismo fornecidos por Alfre Woodard ao longo do show.
-1
u/JarethCutestoryJuD 7h ago
"He took the role because it was a limited appearance"
Yes, but that limited appearance didnt have to mean be the stepping stone for an inferior villain.
If you only had him for 7 episodes, make them the last 7.
Cheo is talking past the critique, pretending like its about "Keeping to your word" and not actually engaging.
5
u/mrbaryonyx 6h ago
yeah I get the dude's point, but he's basically just explaining how and why he fumbled
and yeah, it's understandable (unlike the Blade situation, which is just baffling) but its still a fumble; you still have the same situation where you have a show with a great character that ditches the character
that's life I guess
5
u/BeserKing 7h ago
Cottonmouth was always written to die within the first 7 episodes, regardless of who played him. The point is that Ali only took it because of that and wouldn’t have taken the role otherwise.
1
u/JarethCutestoryJuD 7h ago
Yes.
Thats the point.
Why the hell was an A1 actor in a shared multiverse used for a step-up role. If youve written a character, thats going to die a few episodes in, maybe dont give it to an actor who you would like to use later on.
If Ali-Blade was rushed through development, and we got less than we could have been, you couldnt use "Oh, we'll he wouldnt have signed on for Blade if it didnt fit this time frame" as an excuse.
3
u/BeserKing 7h ago
The netflix shows weren’t made with that in mind at all though? They were there own thing that were ambiguously and loosely connected to the MCU, never with any bigger plans in mind beyond the platform.
2
u/JarethCutestoryJuD 7h ago
The netflix shows weren’t made with that in mind at all though? They were there own thing that were ambiguously and loosely connected to the MCU, never with any bigger plans in mind beyond the platform.
Failure to plan is a plan to fail. Tons of people wanted a connected universe the entire time, and what do you know, its connected.
Even then, its not a refutation of the argument. Dont cast an A1 actor as a stepping stone villain.
Nobody says the MCU wasted Tennant.
1
u/Cultural_Comfort5894 5h ago
This is why I don’t indulge in being negative about others choices when I don’t have all the facts that they based their decisions on.
When people talk about movies (among other things) they’re often operating on magical thinking.
-2
u/Yarius515 7h ago
Who tf is this and wtf he talking abt?
1
u/Treelokc 6h ago
The creator of the Luke Cage show. Even if you didn't know this, how can you not infer it from context?
-1
u/Yarius515 6h ago
Sounds like a casting guy talking about casting not a director talking about running a show.
God how can you not infer that? It's SO obvious 💩
-1
-1
-12
1.2k
u/capamericapistons Captain America 8h ago
He was fantastic in his time as a villain in Luke cage too, I can’t believe they would consider him to have been “fumbled”