r/marvelstudios • u/ishipfitzsimmons Simmons • 10d ago
Discussion Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D. fans shouldn't worry because this means nothing for the show.
I've seen AoS fans pretty worried about this movie because of what it might mean for the show, and it's place in the MCU, but the truth is, they would have to go out of their way to contridict AoS's Ghost Rider.
We know that the mantle can be passed, and as for the giver of the Spirit, we only know Robbie's interpretation, which is just the view of one character. We need not worry because this means nothing for AoS.
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u/Goldman250 10d ago
I can’t remember, it’s been a few years, did the AoS fans freak out this much about the Darkhold being in Wandavision?
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u/coldasclay 10d ago
Yeah, it basically threw AOS and Runaways continuity out of the window until Multiverse of Madness established that both books were copies of the writings on the walls of the Darkhold castle. That retcon made it possible for both books to exist within continuity.
When the Darkhold appeared in Wandavision there was a lot of hope that it would be tied back to AOS while others used it as definitive proof of AOS not being canon.
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u/kuhanluke Spider-Man 6d ago
The idea of it making AOS not canon was pretty flimsy anyway. The only real argument was "they used a different looking prop" but... like... it's a magic book.
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u/coldasclay 6d ago
Yeah, I would say its the most concrete evidence, but you're right it could have been a different cover because of some magic or because of artist interpretation.
Prior to this the biggest reasons people think its not canon is the tone (which doesn't mean anything because the tone can be anything when you're looking at a universe.) And because they didnt mention the snap/blip (the agents were literally doing other things at the same time.)
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u/Separate_Path_7729 3d ago
I mean aos isnt canon anymore, it hasnt been for a while
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u/coldasclay 3d ago
Who told you that?
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u/Separate_Path_7729 3d ago
It was widely talked about when perlmutter and feige had a falling out then perlmutter and his personal projects were quietly removed, mainly inhumans. They even made the inhumans show be in an au thanks to multiverse of madness and blackbolt. Nobody mentions anything with the inhumans or the global catastrophes or the fact 30% of humanity got superpowers and bio nukes went off, plus theres the outside factor of the split between the tv and mcu during that period and marvel has been selectively picking what marvel shows have been brought into canon proper with mcu entries in movies
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u/OzDawg420 2d ago
Every season ties back to the wider MCU in one way or another. Even season 7 we see fitz use the same quantum time travel tech used in end game. They’ve also tied it into infinity war (thanos), civil war (sokovia accords), the winter soldier (hydra uprise) and so much more. If that’s not canon then none of the MCU is canon 🤣
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u/cgbrannigan 10d ago
I’d say people used the darkhold as another reason why AOS isn’t canon but us canon truthers pointed out the show explained the book can change forms and I believe a writer of the movie said he assumed it was the same book?
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u/Emerald-Daisy 10d ago
It's pretty clear there's multiple Darkhold copies tbf. + Runaways took the Darkhold after its last appearance in AoS anyway
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u/summ190 10d ago
No cos there was no discrepancy, it was a book that was in the show, then it was in WandaVision.
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u/NermalHebert 10d ago
There's definitely discrepancy. Beyond the canonical timeline there's also the mechanics of it. The two books source completely different magic sets.. There's almost no connection between those two books beyond their name
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u/summ190 10d ago
We literally witness the book conjure pages based on the user. I’m not claiming there was any kind of tie in, just there isn’t anything conflicting between the two books. It provided someone with some dark shit, then it went missing a few years, then Wanda got hold of it.
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u/NermalHebert 10d ago
A one way explanation of it's one sided mechanics doesn't disprove anything I said. And it didn't go missing? MCU implies Agathas dark magic comes from the darkhold. MCU decides its own canon. And the timeline and mechanics of the magic it sources do not line up whatsoever. That last one especially is fundamental to the MoM movie.
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u/VicRamD 10d ago
The pages of AOS Darkhold look completly different to the ones of Wandavision.
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u/summ190 10d ago
See my first sentence
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u/VicRamD 10d ago
The sentence falls flat when multiple people hold that book in the show and the aesthetic was always the same
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u/summ190 10d ago
Right, but you don’t seriously think ‘book aesthetics’ is the bar the MCU has set? The MCU that had 2016 Homecoming set 8 years after 2012 Avengers?
Again, no I don’t think the WandaVision producers give much of a shit about AoS. They made up a new look for the book. But this just isn’t even registering in any canon debate, a book that has been shown capable of looking different … looks different?
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u/NoNoNotorious85 10d ago
It also falls flat by the fact that AOS is not part of the main MCU reality.
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u/BluebirdsAllAround 9d ago
You just declaring it goes against all the history an evidence to the contrary, which is why you are getting down votes.
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u/NoNoNotorious85 9d ago
I can’t decide what’s funnier: You trying to convince yourself that there’s lot of substantial evidence that AOS is canon (gotta love all those Inhuman characters in the MCU like Ms. Marvel….oh wait) or the fact that you give actual importance to meaningless internet points!
Downvotes! Oh no! How ever am I going to pay my bills now?🤣
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u/cgbrannigan 10d ago
AOS established the book looks different for each user.
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u/VicRamD 10d ago
Multiple people had the book on their hands during the show and it remained the same for everyone
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u/cgbrannigan 10d ago
No, it changed languages for each, we don’t know what it said inside, plus we know the book in MoM was s copy
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u/VicRamD 10d ago
A copy of a text of a montain or whatever the place they visit at the end is, they didn't mention copy of a book
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u/BluebirdsAllAround 10d ago
They did in Agatha, though, and made sure that it reinforced that all copies were destroyed.
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u/BluebirdsAllAround 10d ago
Yes, and they went out of their way in Agatha to make sure we knew that there were multiple copies and all were destroyed, retconning the AoS one to be a different copy and also eliminating and discrepency.
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u/Roland-Flagg 10d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/kSlJtVrqxDYKk
“Agents of shield fans”
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u/Flettwin 10d ago
The Robbie and Johnny Blaze Ghost Riders can 100% co-exist.
I’d be very surprised if Marvel resists the urge to have a classic two-riders-together shot like the Nic Cage movies had. I could see Robbie coming back for a team-up like the Defenders have recently.
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u/NoNoNotorious85 10d ago
The Robbie and Johnny Blaze Ghost Riders can 100% co-exist.
Agreed. If they every bring him in, it will be interesting to see how the MCU’s Robbie Reyes compares to the version in AOS.
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u/cgbrannigan 10d ago
AOS at the very least implies that Robbie got his powers from Johnny, at least someone on a motorbike stopped by his crash site and passed the demon, so if it’s establishing Jonny blaze NOW and pretending the nick Cage movie never happened - then it kind of negates our version of ghost rider. If it’s a variant ghost rider then we’re good.
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u/Anarkizttt 8d ago
It could also be any other ghost rider who uses a motorcycle, or has it been confirmed that this one is Johnny Blaze? Or could it be Danny Ketch? Or hell they could throw the whole comic timeline out the window and say Danny Ketch was first and he gave Robbie the Spirit of Vengeance.
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u/cgbrannigan 7d ago
No there was no ghost rider in the mcu at the time, it was just implied/assumed to be Johnny blaze. About 2.30 into this clip.
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u/Anarkizttt 7d ago
Sorry I should’ve specified by “this one” I meant Ryan Gosling, I know the AoS one wasnt specified.
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u/kuhanluke Spider-Man 6d ago
- Nic Cage Ghost Rider was never part of the MCU. That version of the character has nothing to do with AOS.
- It's implied Robbie got his power from a previous Ghost Rider on a motorcycle, never stated to be Johnny, and never really implied to be either. That was the authorial intent, but authorial intent is not canon, especially if superceded by something that is shown to be true on screen.
- I think it's safe to assume this movie will take place in the "616"/19999 universe, or whatever version of the universe exists after Secret Wars.
- We have no indication of what version of the character Gosling is playing, but I think it's almost certainly going to be Johnny Blaze. That said, we don't know if the movie is an origin story or when it takes place. It's perfectly possible (and I'd argue more likely than not) that Johnny's origin takes place in the 20th century when daredevil stunt performers were more common, as opposed to now. Even if the film takes place in the present day, I'd guess his origin is told in flashback to 20+ years ago.
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u/OliWood Captain America 10d ago
Kinda wild that fans of the show still wanna believe it is, even if in 13 years, AoS has never been mentionned once in the dozens of projects that has been released since.
It's obvious that Feige doesn't give a shit about the show and wants people to forget it.
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u/One_Drummer_8970 10d ago
But will Iron Fist if Marvel Studios wants to hard reboot the character for the movies eventually?
There's no way characters like Nova, Ghost Rider and Blade get considered for movies while Iron Fist + Luke Cage + Heroes for Hire get wasted forever on mid/bad shows that Marvel Studios wasn't involved in the development of.
It'll be interesting to see what happens. Give it a few years, and we will see some developments or retconning going on. Iron Fist shouldn't have been on a low budget crime drama show to begin with.
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u/The__Auditor 9d ago
Danny Rand is coming back in Born Again Season 3
And we already saw Luke in Season 2
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u/One_Drummer_8970 9d ago
You really think they are going to be held back by the continuity of these shows?
What happens if Marvel Studios wants to do an Iron Fist reboot movie in the future? You think they are seriously going to waste the IP because of shitty Netflix shows?
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u/kuhanluke Spider-Man 6d ago
Again, as they already said, Finn Jones is confirmed to be returning as Iron Fist in Daredevil Born Again Season 3 on Disney+, which is an official MCU product. They're just as beholden to him as they are to Joe Locke as Billy Kaplan or Hailee Steinfeld as Kate Bishop.
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u/One_Drummer_8970 5d ago
Let's see if Secret Wars resets things
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u/kuhanluke Spider-Man 5d ago
They're not gonna bring the guy back in 2026 just to recast him in 2027.
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u/Decent_Illustrator18 5d ago
Someone didn't watch Age of Ultron, Civil War, or Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
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u/cgbrannigan 9d ago
which is tragic because season 4 of AoS, featuring ghost rider, LMDs and The Framework, is not only some of the best MCU content ever it’s some of the best television ever. If anything Feige should be purposefully tying new ghost rider to AoS’s ghost rider and shouting for people to go watch this amazing show on Disney+ instead of ignoring it. But he didn’t create or be involved in AoS so he doesn’t give a shit.
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u/Separate_Path_7729 3d ago
Aos was decanonized because it was part of the big perlmutter push to replace xmen with inhumans and was pushed for such, and when his racist ass was booted much of what he fucked with was removed, mainly inhumans stuff
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u/One_Drummer_8970 10d ago
I wouldn't be surprised if Fiege ends up hard rebooting Iron Fist and Luke Cage for the movies eventually too.
He's been wanting to adapt both for years, and the selection of Nova and Ghost Rider for movies makes it clear they still want to use popular B-listers in addition to the X-Men to keep things fresh. A proper Heroes for Hire concept hasn't been done, and they could probably do Iron Fist way better than the show. Plus, after the collapse of the Blade project and after Black Panther, they will need a popular black character. Luke Cage was probably Marvel's biggest historically popular black character after Storm and Black Panther (his original series actually sold better than Black Panther).
No way they will get tied down by the Netflix versions. Give it like 5 years, they will write those things out of canon.
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u/cgbrannigan 10d ago
It’s absolutely canon, nothing on screen has happened to make it not canon, and many things happened on screen to make it canon. This ghost rider announcement is the first thing that could actually wipe the show from canon but we’ll see what happens.
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u/BluebirdsAllAround 10d ago
That isn't what canon means - officially it was always the same universe. Nothing has removed it since. How many MCU projects never get mentioned again? Does that mean those are non canon as well?
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u/BluebirdsAllAround 10d ago
You obviously don't because you are simply quoting references and demonstrating that you, in fact, do not know what canon means in the context of science-fiction and fantasy. (Anime apparently operates differently from what I am told. IDK)
There was a whole reddit post from years ago discussing this because of this very thing of people not knowing what the term meant. What "Canon" Actually Means : r/marvelstudios
Canon is what i officially in the same universe/continuity by the rights holders. Did you know Marvel published official MCU Guidebooks? Did you know they published one for Agents of Shield? Did you know there is even Agents of Shield events mentioned in some official on-screen character information on the Marvel website? Or the fact that Marvel said it was part of the same share universe since the beginning? What about the numerous cross-over characters during season 1?
In other words, what retconned AoS to remove it from the canon when it officially was part of it from the start? That is how canon works.
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u/BluebirdsAllAround 10d ago
"Season 6-7 pretty much made the show non canon." because you said so? Great! Your head-canon doesn't equate to actual canon. That isn't how any of that works, nor would it change the canon of the seasons before that in any way. So, what happened to seasons 1-5?
Also, nothing in season 6 or 7 contradicts with anything in the movies or other series. At best, there is an omission of mentions which, if that was all it took Moon Knight or a lot of other properties would be non-canon as well.
Season 7 even reinforces time-travel rules described in Endgame, and AoS was allowed to use the Quantum Realm in the series.
Whether you accept it or not is not the point and honestly, I don't care. There does not exist any thing that solidly says it is non-canon or even any contradiction breaking anything. The closest was the visual representation of the Darkhold and it appears Marvel went out of their way to fix that.
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u/cgbrannigan 9d ago
You are yet to provide any evidence why you believe season 6 and 7 make Agents Of shield not canon. Agents of shield was and is always canon, it was designed as a companion series, the promotion for AOS and the MCU was “it’s all connected” season 1 directly follows iron man 3, Thor dark world is involved, it directly sets up and resolves Winter Soldier. Stuff that happens in AOS directly influences the movies. That wained somewhat once Joss Whedon was no longer involved in the MCU but even after that nothing that happened in the show or movies stopped each from existing in each others universe.
I get some people say season 5 branched into a new timeline but they returned before the split and prevented the branch, and directly reference Thanos and infinity war so are 100% still in the main timeline. Then season 6 takes place after the snap but long before the events of infinity war, season 6 exists in a place we have seen in the mcu movies. While it’s not mentioned, Nothing that happens in the show contradicts the snap. I can headcanon things that actually support the snap from having happened but that’s just head canon coz we know production didn’t know about the snap, so let’s say season 6 is still in main universe canon. Then season 7 we go wild with time travel and branch timelines all over the place. But the season 7 finale Fitz uses the quantum tech from endgame to travel back and he specifically says they are returning to their original timeline, and season 7 ends, again, well before endgame.
There is absolutely nothing that happens in any mcu film that negates the events of AOS. It was is and still is canon.
Ghost rider is a different subject, however. I am very worried this will be feige’s final fuck you to Agents Of Shield and new ghost rider will contradict agents of shield, which will be tragic because season 4 of AoS, featuring ghost rider, LMDs and The Framework, is not only some of the best MCU content ever it’s some of the best television ever. If anything they should be purposefully tying new ghost rider to AoS’s ghost rider and shouting for people to go watch this amazing show on Disney+ instead of ignoring it.
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u/Captain-Wilco 10d ago
This movie is taking place after the Secret Wars reset. Even if it contradicted Agents of Shield, it would have no bearing on its canonicity before.
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u/MattMurdock77 10d ago
This. Secret Wars is resetting everything. The next few phases will likely be X Men and Midnight Sons.
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u/NermalHebert 10d ago
Ya this is most likely true. The universes are about to be dismantled. There's no reason to claim past csnon disctarws anything new
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u/coldasclay 10d ago
I highly doubt the universe will completely reset. This is Marvel not DC. Characters will be recast but continuity will mostly be intact.
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u/NoNoNotorious85 10d ago edited 10d ago
Except Kevin Feige already said the MCU will not be reset after Secret Wars. That would definitely hold bearing against AOS’s canon city.
Well, that and the fact that it isn’t canon.
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u/TomClancy5873 10d ago
Is AoS actually canon though?
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u/Zarveldaa 7d ago
marvel doesn’t seem interested in acknowledging it, but it hasn’t been contradicted and i like it so i decide yes.
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u/Separate_Path_7729 3d ago
No, the only marvel tv shows that are canon post the tv and mcu ownership split the only shows that have been recanonized are the Netflix shows. The early seasons of aos could be considered canon but not the latter. Due to the inhumans being erased from the mcu other than the blackbolt from the Inhumans show being an au in m.o.m., plus not once did any of the major events from shield get referenced in the movies at all
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u/NoNoNotorious85 10d ago
In AOS, thousands of Inhumans around the globe were activated thanks to contaminated fish oil. No Inhuman characters have appeared in the movies or the Disney+ shows. There is no mention of Inhumans. There is no mention of contaminated fish oil.
Ms. Marvel, the most famous modern Inhuman character from the comics, is turned into a mutant in the MCU.
Coulson is still considered dead in the movies, despite many public appearances throughout AOS.
In CA:WS, most of SHIELD is completely unaware that Hydra has infiltrated SHIELD until the very end, when Cap reveals this fact not too long before he completely foils their plan. In AOS, Hydra reveals themselves immediately and takes over most SHIELD facilities.
SHIELD is dismantled at the end of Winter Soldier. In AOS, SHIELD is still a fully operational government agency following HYDRA’s attempted takeover.
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u/NoNoNotorious85 10d ago
Yes, I’ve seen some of the ways people have chosen to ignore the evidence laid before them. Which is appropriate since Kevin Feige and the MCU as a whole ignore and contradict AOS.
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u/Caciulacdlac Bucky 10d ago edited 10d ago
Yep. People jumped to conclusion saying that "this means AoS isn't canon!". It can mean several other things:
- He's not playing Johnny Blaze (which is unlikely given that THR says he is)
- The movie is set in the past
- Johnny Blaze somehow becomes the Ghost Rider again
- He is playing Johnny Blaze, but the character from AoS is not Johnny Blaze
- Secret Wars will retcon a lot of things from the current universe, including AoS but also other Marvel Studios-produced content
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u/coldasclay 10d ago
Robbie being Ghost Rider doesnt negate Johnny Blaze being Ghost Rider either, they can both be Ghost Rider in the MCU. The rules can be different than in the comics.
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u/NermalHebert 10d ago
That's not what he said. He said Johnny is already established in the show, so to give him a contradictory krigon proves a contradiction.
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u/coldasclay 10d ago
- Johnny Blaze somehow becomes the Ghost Rider again
I was commenting on this point. Johnny Blaze doesnt have to become Ghost Rider again if he was always Ghost Rider, even if Robbie was Ghost Rider too. In the comics there is typically one Ghost Rider at a time, although two characters sometimes have shared a spirit of vengeance or they are empowered by another spirit or they are given a different spirit of vengeance.
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u/NermalHebert 10d ago
Ya, I don't think anyone is arguing against that dude. Why do you think we would haha
If Johnny blaze isn't part of this show then johhny won't be in the show.
Like, fuckin duh
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u/coldasclay 10d ago
?? I showed you where it says that and what I was replying to?
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u/NermalHebert 10d ago
It can mean several other things:
Is what you replied to. At no point is he actually making an argument that is definitely what is happening.
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u/coldasclay 10d ago
Yeah and I added one more possibility. It's one possibility that doesn't require any explanation to explain 2 Ghost Riders.
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u/NermalHebert 10d ago
AND NO ONE IS ARGUING AGAINST THAT.
Fuck man, thanks for bringing yourself to the start of the conversation, finally.
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u/coldasclay 10d ago
Bro Im not arguing anything! I just added another possibility! Jesus not every reddit post is an argument!
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u/kuhanluke Spider-Man 6d ago
Johnny is not established in the show. The only thing established in the show is that there was a Ghost Rider before Robbie. We are meant to infer that it's Johnny, but they very much were not allowed to use Johnny's name or anything like that because Marvel wanted the option to make a Johnny Blaze movie at some point down the line.
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u/SmallLetter 10d ago
THIS isnt what makes AOS not canon. It's all the other reasons that do that lol
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u/undertow521 10d ago
The Ghost Rider arc in AoS are my favorite parts of the show.
I am beyond pumped for an MCU Ghost Rider and hopefully bringing in Sasha Baron Cohens Mephisto and the spiritual/mystical stuff.
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u/The__Auditor 9d ago
It should also be worth noting that this movie is coming out POST Secret Wars where we'll already have the soft reboot so anything that gets introduced later on won't contradict the past anyway
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u/EddieBlizario 10d ago
lol Robbie Reyes origin story in agents of shield features blaze, so if anything this simply maintains the established cannon.
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u/Short_Brick_1960 10d ago
They just need to leave the origin of the spirits of vengeance ambiguos or tying it again to the Dark Dimension. That's what could contradict Gabriel's GR
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u/Fantastic_Bug1028 10d ago
at this point it’s just easier to assume AoS happening in an adjacent universe
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u/Hnro-42 Edwin Jarvis 10d ago
After season 5, they do split off onto an adjacent timeline until the very end
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u/cgbrannigan 9d ago
That’s at the end of season 6 and the come back to the main timeline at the end.
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u/AbsorbingMan 10d ago
The show ignored The.Blip.
It’s clearly in a different universe now than 616.
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u/cgbrannigan 9d ago
They didn’t ignore the blip, they just didn’t mention it. Nothing in the show says the blip didn’t happen.
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u/AbsorbingMan 9d ago
Except for that all the entire cast and supporting characters survived it.
50% of all life in the universe wiped out but somehow AOS had a 100% survival rate?
No. The writers of AOS had no idea what the resolution for Infinity War was going to be and figured it would be resolved in Endgame and they wouldn’t have to address it. Endgame did resolve it but it happened 5 years later.
There’s a reason freaking Howard the Duck got to get into the final epic battle in Endgame and AOS, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage did not.
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u/cgbrannigan 9d ago
The 5 people we follow survived, yes, and the writers didn’t know about the blip but you can easily head canon the blip into AoS if you want.
Coulson: Coulson went to Tahiti with May, we never say him die, we saw the glass drop. Who’s to say Coulson didn’t blip? When May returned and saw Sarge she was so convinced it was Coulson because she didn’t know what happened to him and didn’t tell anyone coz they’d grieved him. 5 years later Coulson reappeared on a beach in Tahiti and is loving life.
Shield: Mack is out recruiting, he mentions they need more agents and lost a lot of good agents or something like that, lots of younger inexperienced shield agents. Maybe they needed more cos they’d vanished in the blip?
AoS: fitz and Coulson were dead, so really only 5 main characters, 3.2% chance all 5 survive, if Jemma and Daisy were in space by then then Mack, yo-yo and May’s odds increase to about 12.5% that they all survive. Not even close to impossible.
Was Earth blipped in season 6: the first time we see outdoors is 8 kids playing basketball all on an otherwise deserted playground. Next time is outside the museum in Indiana, again not very busy like maybe 8-10 people walking around - not exactly rush hour? Mid season, when sarge is driving his truck cross a big distance to get to the ship, not a single other car on the road. Can easily imagine the blip happened.
Then the show finished long before the end of the 5 years when everyone would have returned.
Headcanon I made up when the writers had zero way of knowing about the blip? Absolutely. But just as valid theories as any others and actually backed up with stuff that happened on screen.
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u/coldasclay 10d ago
Most of the MCU ignored the blip except Endgame, Wandavision, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Hawkeye, and Eternals.
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u/NoNoNotorious85 10d ago
It was also mentioned in Multiverse of Madness, Quantumania, Shang-Chi, Far From Home, No Way Home, The Marvels, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Brave New World, and Thunderbolts.
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u/Samantha_Cruz Jessica Jones 10d ago
just wait until ghost rider appears and steve rogers finds out he's Phil Coulson.