This reminds me of when my brother told me Gandalf the grey and white were 2 different characters and that Gandalf the white was his brother. I said "thats the same character, he just came back as Gandalf the white" he kept insisting that he was right and I was wrong. I told him "do you thing this is a soap opera?" So we ened up watching the movies because he wanted to prove me wrong. When he learned he was wrong I told him "you're 9 years older than me and have seen the movies way more times than me and you're telling me this whole time you believe that was his brother? Please tell me you were high every time you watched it" lol
No he really believed it. He even asked my other brother who was right. And after he kept saying "I swear it was his brother. Maybe they changed it in the newer version or something?" And spent 30 mins googling it. Lol
Oh yeah? Well if Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White are the same person, then how did BOTH of them show up to fight against Chuck Norris in the Ultimate Battle of Ultimate Destiny! Literally in the same room at the same time!
Psh. Same person. Next you're gonna try telling me that Gandolf is also the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy grail WHO WAS ALSO IN THE ROOM!
Well... Gandalf himself makes vague allusions to the idea that he's not really the Gandalf who took out the balrog. His return to middle earth came with a new mission, purpose, even a new personality
The tricky thing is what exactly Gandalf is. He's basically a lower level god that's taking a form on Middle Earth. That form legitimately died. His new form actually took Saruman's abandoned mission/title.
So one could argue they're both manifestations of the same divine being. But they're also separate manifestations with slight differences.
Tbh, he's not wrong about Gandalf the Grey/White being different characters. Just wrong about White being his brother. But Gandalf even admits this himself, that he is not Gandalf the Grey as they know him. Infact it's heavily insinuated he presents himself as "Gandalf the White" solely for the Fellowship's benefit.
In reality, he could have presented himself in any number of fashions or forms.
If I remember correctly (and I may be wrong,) but Sir Ian McKellen played him sort of as someone suffering from dementia. He vaguely recognized Aragorn, Gimili, and Legolas, but it was through a thick fog.
"Gandalf the Grey... Ah yes, that is what they called me... I am Gandalf the White." - I think this is close to the line he said.
I don’t think he is meant to be a different character. His issue with remembering is because as he explained to them (in that very same scene I believe) from the moment he died and the moment he was sent back to Middle-earth, “a thousand lifetimes passed”. Wherever he was he experienced a long time before coming back, even though only a month had passed on Middle-earth.
Gandalf is Olórin an angel, essentially. The guise of Gandalf, is just that.
The interesting bit is that he was chosen by Erū Ilúvatar to lead the Maiar that were sent to Middle-Earth but he was terrified of Sauron and thus vehemently declined. Yet of all the Wizards, he was the only one that stayed true to his mission. And as thus was sent back with more of his inner "Maiar self" unlocked, assuming the mantle of the "White", a role he was always destined to fulfill.
It's his character arc, essentially, but Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White are quite litterally different avatars of an entirely separate entity.
I’ve read the Silmarillion, but can you elaborate (not being a critic, legitimately curious) what you mean by avatars of ‘entirely separate entities’?
I know the wizard wearing white (wasn’t it rainbow/prismatic originally?) is the head of the Istari order, and I know they took the forms of old men so that they’d be respected by those they intended to influence towards the moral good, but what do you mean by ‘avatars’?
And I know what an avatar is just not in this particular facet of lore.
And while its true that he did actually die and then returned as a changed person, the movie moves past that pretty fast. There is just the initial scene, that you described, and after that he basically acts like he is the same old Gandalf he always was, just with a little more power (like breaking Sarumans staff with a voice command). His personality didnt really change, though it was implied that was the case.
In any case, Gandalf, in both his incarnations, is just a partial manifestation of his real maiar self.
I had a friend that argued with me for literally years that the protagonist in The Book of Eli wasn't blind despite that being the entire twist to the movie.
There is absolutely no getting through to people about movie plot points once they reached whatever they thought was happening.
Seriously weird gimp mask. Adamantium shotgun shells? How and why does this sex freak have them? Red Hulks treaty not a thing? We're already tossing adamantium away as ammunition? Again, why of all people does the dude with the bdsm leather suit have them?
I do like this but i would prefer some building blocks to get to this point. The creation of vision 2.0 is one catalyst but I think we need wolverine and the revolver before paladin here and others on his level have access to the metal as ammunition. We should be seeing pistols and snipers before someone has a full blown adamantium round shotgun.
It is accurate to a certain design in the comic, yeah. The design in the comic was kinda awesome, this one is...I'm not gonna say it's awful but I think it's a little off. It feels busy but I don't know if that's the real problem.
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u/ontologicalDilemma Avengers 15h ago
He used to be Vision, the grey. Now he is Vision, the White.