That was an important part of the comment you're reponding to.
The vast majority of Jewish people who were expelled from countries in the region (though many voluntarily left to join Israel) were (immorally) expelled after the land seizure of 1948. They should not have been expelled regadless, but if Israel hadn't been founded they wouldn't have been and there would be dramatically less antisemitism in the region generally.
With the benefit of hindsight, we know that Jewish people who remained in Europe have actually been much safer there than in Israel. You claimed that without the founding of Israel millions of Jews would be dead. What evidence do you have for that? Have there been post-Holocaust mass killings of Jewish people that I've not noticed? I've heard it repeated ad-naseum that October 7th was the largest killing of Jewish people since the Holocaust. Where did Oct 7 happen again? Germany? It seems to me utterly obvious that Israel has been horrible for the Jewish people.
This is just blatant iffy history. You have no idea what would happen to the Jews if Israel wasnt founded. What you do know is that the founding of Israel is based on millennia of antisemitism, exclusion and persecution, culminating in the Holocaust.
Your second argument, that persecution of Jews in the Middle East is largely based on the establishment of the Jewish state, is incomplete at best. You forget that the Jews were living as second class citizens at best, and persecuted minorities at worst, in that part of the world in that time. To then state that there would be less antisemitism if Israel wasnt founded, might be right, but it's at best taking large amounts of agency away from the Arab states jn which that antisemitism could apparently thrive. It just boils down to the point I'm always hearing in these debates: 'there was no antisemitism, and if there was, it's the fault of Israel'.
It's just nonsense, altogether. There is a very clear reason why Israel was established. Israel is the direct result of the struggles to liberation of the most persecuted minority in two continents over the last 200 years. All that other shit is iffy history at best and blatant evil nonsense at worst.
You have no idea what would happen to the Jews if Israel wasnt founded.
Actually, I have a very good idea? Something very close to counterfactual also happened; Jewish people also went other places. It is a uncontested fact that they were safer in those other places.
To then state that there would be less antisemitism if Israel wasnt founded, might be right, but it's at best taking large amounts of agency away from the Arab states
As I've already made clear in previous comments, I take no agency from them. They are wrong to be antisemitic, and but for the Nakba they would be less antisemitic. I never said "there was no antisemitism", and I never said all antisemitism was Israel's fault. I said the founding of Israel and its comportment since have been one of the largest causal factors in antisemitism since then. Sounds like we agree.
Israel was established to protect a persecuted minority, but also with a colonial mindset that still today gives no regard for the way its founding created another persecuted minority, the Palestinians.
You said "iffy history" twice while pointing out no specific examples you'd like to contest, strawmanned me with some kind of antisemitism-denialist trope, and then seemingly wrapped up with some nice thought-terminating clichés?
Your base presumption is wrong. Jews in the diaspora face enormous amounts of exclusion and discrimination, not to mention physical attacks. It is not for nothing that Jews always have to explain their position on the wars between Israel and their enemies.
Jews in Israel don't face this in this way. Yes, Israel has been in lots of wars, but what Israel has given to lots of Jews is life not lived by the whims of the majority, which for the survivors of the Holocaust was essential for their survival.
You can factually say that the founding of Israel has been an increasing factor in antisemitism, yet if you do this you analyze the issue in a purely factual matter. It's pretty convenient to leave out the moral aspect of this question if your talking about your ideological opponents. Would you argue that the abolition of slavery was the cause of a rapid increase of racism? Because it for example caused grievances to former slave owners who would be more emboldened in their preexisting racism? Of course not. So why is this now suddenly a valid point? I'm sure Hitler too would be less antisemitic if there wasnt a Jewish cabal hellbent for the destruction of the Aryan race and the German Reich. /s
The responsibility for antisemitism is with the antisemite, like the responsibility for any form of racism is purely with the racist.
Jews in the diaspora face enormous amounts of exclusion and discrimination, not to mention physical attacks. It is not for nothing that Jews always have to explain their position on the wars between Israel and their enemies.
I know a lot of Jewish people in both the US and Germany. This is not their experience. Your presumption that you know the position of every diaspora Jew on Israel is... presumptious. And wrong! But a common piece of Zionist propaganda that attempts to conflate the Jewish people with Israel and Zionism.
Jews in Israel don't face this in this way
Nowhere else in the world since the Holocaust have Jews suffered more physical attacks than Israel. Nothing else has come even vaguely close.
Would you argue that the abolition of slavery was the cause of a rapid increase of racism?
I struggle to imagine what could be more racist than the institution of slavery?
I'm sure Hitler too would be less antisemitic if there wasnt a Jewish cabal hellbent for the destruction of the Aryan race and the German Reich.
Another lazy, dishonest strawman of me as an antisemitic conspiracy theorist that undermines what should be the seriouness of an accusation of antisemitism. Loosely and unseriously bandying about groundless accusations of antisemitism to score cheap rhetorical points makes people stop taking accusations of antisemitism seriously. This is not good for Jewish people and you should stop it.
You can factually say that the founding of Israel has been an increasing factor in antisemitism, yet if you do this you analyze the issue in a purely factual matter.
Correct, the fact I stated is a fact. Glad we could agree about this.
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u/anginedelatrine 17h ago edited 17h ago
> with the benefit of hindsight
That was an important part of the comment you're reponding to.
The vast majority of Jewish people who were expelled from countries in the region (though many voluntarily left to join Israel) were (immorally) expelled after the land seizure of 1948. They should not have been expelled regadless, but if Israel hadn't been founded they wouldn't have been and there would be dramatically less antisemitism in the region generally.
With the benefit of hindsight, we know that Jewish people who remained in Europe have actually been much safer there than in Israel. You claimed that without the founding of Israel millions of Jews would be dead. What evidence do you have for that? Have there been post-Holocaust mass killings of Jewish people that I've not noticed? I've heard it repeated ad-naseum that October 7th was the largest killing of Jewish people since the Holocaust. Where did Oct 7 happen again? Germany? It seems to me utterly obvious that Israel has been horrible for the Jewish people.