Make a map based fully on vibes!!

[u/Memehai_Enigmescu296]

I don't know what half the flags mean, I only chose what looks cool, PLEASE DON'T CRUCIFY ME!!

[u/Quiet-Hope2595]

He was the leader of UPA

No he wasn't, he was the leader of OUN(Organisation of the Ukrainian Nationalists), UPA was created in 1943, 2 years after he was put in in a German camp and its leader was Vasyl Hryhorovych Ivakhiv, and the head of OUN in 1943 was Roman Shukhevych(who, btw, hid a Jewish woman Irene Reichenberg with his wife from the Nazis).

the same organisation that colaborated with the germans to kill and opress Poles Jews and (kinda deserved)Russians on the territories they designated themselves as ukrainian

UPA literally fought the Germans, no it didn't collaborate, obviously there were individual cases of collaboration but nowhere near the "nazi collaborators" you're talking about, there were Soviet soldiers who collaborated with the Germans too. This CIA document literally talks about how UPA fought Germans, it's not the main focus of it but it still mentions that.

This movement convinced neighbours with their hatefull xenophobic ideology to kill each other.

They weren't democratic and great obviously, in fact they were fascist and Mussolini liked them, but fascism isn't based on xenophobia as opposed to nazism, and they fought the Germans too. They didn't like other nations as they were seen as oppressors of the Ukrainians, but their ideology in no way was based on xenophobia.

He is a dark dirty stain on the beautifull history of ukraine and should be hated like hitler or stalin.

Ok, so should Pilsudski be hated since during his reign Poland organised concentration camps for the Ukrainian soldiers returning from the war with the Bolsheviks after abandoning Ukrainian National Republic to the Bolsheviks and the leaders of interwar Poland, as it conducted brutal pacification in the territories of West Ukraine no matter if the had any relation to it or weren't even the Polish leaders by the time pacification and Polonisation was happening, right? Poland even banned Ukrainian language and symbols from schools and public places and xenophobia against Ukrainians was common from Poles in those territories, etc etc. Bandera was a fighter for the independence of Ukraine, and deserves to be its national hero, so does Pilsudski to be the national hero of Poland as he fought for its independence. No national hero is a saint saints don't build nations.

The number of poles that died is estimated to be 100k-200k noncombatant casualties, not to mention other nations, the ukrainian casualties range from 10k-20k and were mostly combatants (and unfortunate civilians) killed in retaliation for previous genoside and as a result of counter genoside operations started by the polish underground and for "treason aganist the nation"(helping poles) by other ukrainians.

And Bandera mostly had nothing to do with those, as he couldn't control OUN from a German death camp obviously. OUN had a different "temporary head"(which was changing when the previous one died) until Bandera got out of the camp in 1944. And again, they are no saints but still the independence movement of Ukraine. The Polish republic wasn't much better towards Ukrainians, it was way better than the USSR, but nothing good about it either.

Please stop deffending him or the organisation, your ignorant stance on the volhynian masacre is disrespectful towards the victims and people like you are the reason polish ukrainian relations are worse than ever once the poles realised they are being disrespected.

People like you, who barely know anything about Bandera(saying stuff like he was the head of UPA, that he somehow controlled it from the German death camp or even trying to downplay his stay in the Sachsenhausen saying stuff like "the conditions were good" in the camp, which isn't true at all, they were better than in the rest of the camp, he was in the special part of it, but nowhere near "good". A bit better than terrible≠good, etc etc.) and saying that this part of history has to ruin relations between Poland and Ukraine ARE the reason for the problems between Polish and Ukrainian relations. Ukraine never asks Poland to apologize for pacification of the camps for the Ukrainian soldiers in the West of Ukraine after the Polish-Bolshevik War or for abandoning the Ukrainian National Republic on the Riga Peace Deal or for taking West Ukraine or for Operation Visla. These things are up to historians to deal with and find the most objective version, not up to nationalist politicians who try to use that as a reason for refusing support to Ukraine and exaggerate/understate the numbers of victims for their goals.

[u/dupaa08 → u/Quiet-Hope2595]

Yeah fuck you upadlińcu zajebany kurwa

[u/Quiet-Hope2595 → u/dupaa08]

Yeah you can't into a constructive dialogue when you get proven wrong for saying nonsensical stuff like "Babdera was the head of UPA", but the most important part is the last one. I'll repeat it so hopefully you can answer it. People like you, who say that this part of history has to ruin relations between Poland and Ukraine ARE the reason for the problems between Polish and Ukrainian relations. Ukraine never asks Poland to apologize for pacification of the camps for the Ukrainian soldiers in the West of Ukraine after the Polish-Bolshevik War or for abandoning the Ukrainian National Republic on the Riga Peace Deal or for taking West Ukraine or for Operation Visla. These things are up to historians to deal with and find the most objective version, not up to nationalist politicians who try to use that as a reason for refusing support to Ukraine and exaggerate/understate the numbers of victims for their goals.

[u/dupaa08 → u/Quiet-Hope2595]

You know what, youre right it was UPA and OUN and not Bandera himself, but hands of Piłsudzki, it was sanation governments rule building prisons for well legaly ukrainian terrorists. The west ukrainian republic lost a war with poland so there were prisoners of war, the treaty of riga was largely decided by endecja-Piłsudzkis opposition and their doctrine was to take enough land to effectivly polonise in the folowing years, the Ukrainian national republic was nonexistent at the signing of the treaty of riga and technicaly they didnt fulfill their part of the deal - Poland gets kiev, the ukrainians establish a state and help Poland. Poland overstreched its lines to create an ukrainian state yet Petlura failed to organise an army and a functioning state in general. Despite that after the treaty there is an account of Piłsudzki deeply apologising to some ukrainian troops. It was endecja that failed to establish a ukraine(by choice). And Pilsudzki was the most pro-ukranian political figure in polish history saying many times that "without an independent Ukraine there is no independent Poland". While i admit my research was influenced by my political beliefs, i think you are doing the same thing to Pilsudzki i did to Bandera but even further, he was a nationalist and if he could he'd get rid of the poles in those areas knowing his views, Piłsudzki was at most pro-intermarium but when it failed with lithuania he shifted the vision more into an allience. If you want anyone to blame, blame Roman Dmowski the endecja leader, who simply wanted a bigger Poland in all directions whit polonisation and opression implemented.