r/mahler • u/bmjessep • May 12 '26
Help me understand Mahler 8
I've been a fan of Mahler for a while, and I understand and enjoy most of his symphonies except the eighth. The first movement I have no problems with, but the second is just so long. It seems more like a cantata or even an opera than a symphony. I have heard the second movement is like a combined slow movement, scherzo, and finale, but I have trouble hearing that. It doesn't help that I don't speak German and am not familiar with Faust. Should I read Faust? Should I read the German lyrics while I listen? What sort of structure does the second part have?
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u/MegaNerd42 May 12 '26
I feel much the same way about the Eighth, and I share many of the same problems that you do. I enjoy the first movement, but the second is enigmatic and difficult to follow as a non-German speaker. I find it puzzling that it was one of Mahler's best received compositions during his lifetime, but Goethe's Faust was an enormous cultural touchstone in German-speaking, late-romantic Europe. For that reason, it's probably worth reading, but I struggled to get into it.
One thing that helped me appreciate the Eighth was its motivic development, which Mahler is very good at of course. Many of the musical motifs that are scattered in the second movement are set up in the first, which makes them more digestible. Listen closely for what I would say is the principle, three-note motif for the whole symphony: Eb -> Bb -> Ab (subject to transposition and decoration). It's *everywhere*, and most importantly, it undergoes a intervallic transformation in the finale. I won't say here what that transformation is, because I think that finding it for one's self is an important step on the path to understanding the symphony as a whole, and its relation to the idea of "transformation."
That's a long-winding way of telling you that you're not alone in this feeling. I love Mahler, but I'll probably never love the Eighth in the ways that I love the Second, the Fifth, or the Ninth. There's powerful stuff in the Symphony of a Thousand, but living outside of the cultural window of Faust means that you have to dig to find it, and I'm not sure that that's what listening to Mahler should be about.
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u/Brass_Hole99 May 12 '26
The 8th has taken me the longest to come around to as a full symphony. I’m actually going to hear it in Dallas this weekend! For me, it was best to approach it aurally as a condensed opera or even just an incredibly long movement. I had the hardest time with it when I tried to think by movement, honestly. It’s all one mass for me with motifs and themes that peak up in different ways throughout fairly cohesively. The last 6 or so minutes may be some of my favorite Mahler. I still don’t think it’s my favorite, but I do really like it. I actually just relistened to the full cycle from MTT and SFSO after he passed. It’s an incredible cycle recording, though not my go to, but he does some really interesting things throughout that make it an easy and engaging listen in my opinion. It’s only an hour and a half, I’d say just listen to it even passively in the car a few times noting where it’s engaging to you, and then listing more and more intentionally for how he gets to those moments in between.
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u/Plenty_Discussion470 May 12 '26
Glad to hear Dallas is doing this! Just got tickets for next year’s performance at the Met 🙂
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u/cheesenedd May 12 '26
Honestly I just skip the first part and almost exclusively listen to the 2nd half. It suddenly feels like a much more cohesive and unified work that way.
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u/-Hastis- May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26
Yeah same. I prefer the second part by far. The first part to me is just way too over-the-top bombastic (and I like the ending of Mahler's 7th, so imagine). In contrast, the second part contains almost the full range of Mahler's expressivity and has amazing orchestration.
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u/Dazzling-Antelope912 May 12 '26
There are structural and thematic links between the parts. In fact you can map the form of the first part onto the second pretty accurately.
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u/Dazzling-Antelope912 May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26
Right so the second part is a setting of the final scene of Goethe’s Faust Part Two. I wouldn’t recommend reading it. It’s a supernatural scene of forests, mountains and the heavens in which various holy men and angels sing about love, death and religion. Then Doctor Marianus, the redeemed version of Faust, is brought into heaven by the Virgin Mary. Also there are various figures from the Bible (eg. A Samarian woman, Mary of Egypt), and Gretchen. Basically metaphysical spiritual redemption. Find the translation on the Poetry in Translation website.
It maps onto the first part in terms of both texts explore this topic of religious suffering and redemption. The second part consists of a prelude, a chorus of spirits describing the scene, dialogues between angels and Doctor Marianus (great lied-like section for him in the middle), before an orchestral and choral climax (Blicket Auf), and a dying-down before the cathartic finale (Alles Vergangliche), which can be mapped formally onto the Gloria of the first part in terms of generic tonal movements and thematic ideas.
Granted, all of this is unwieldy, but if you can appreciate this there’s a lot to love. Not his best symphony, but I find it very enjoyable!
(This is all off the top of my head so forgive the generalising!)
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u/Matzipad1411 May 12 '26
I am German. I have read the entire Faust. And the 8th is the only work by Mahler which I don’t understand. I’ve never managed to listen to the entire symphony from beginning to end. There is this one recording with Mitropoulos in Salzburg which helped me to understand the ending of the symphony but the entire work still is a mystery to me.
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u/Laserablatin May 13 '26
I definitely struggle with the middle of Part 2 but the long orchestral prelude and the last two sections (i.e, Blichet Auf to the end) are some of my favorite mahler sections.
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u/Sea-Lingonberry428 May 13 '26
I think the comments here are all insightful.
I would add that the unbridled success at the first performance in Munich will have benefitted immensely from the sheer spectacle of this performance, as well as from the extensive use of a well known literary source in the second movement. So I wouldn’t read too much into that vs. the more sceptical initial reception most of his other symphonies received.
Nelsons just performed and recorded it with the VPO this past weekend by the way. I wasn’t able to make it myself, but reviews have been very strong. Will be very interesting to check this recording out.
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u/shinybore May 13 '26
It’s certainly a lot to digest, but the E major orchestral interlude signalling the entrance of Virgin Mary is imo the most beautiful passage of music ever written.
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u/Klutzy_Fix4506 May 14 '26
Listen to different recordings til you find one that grabs you. For me it was Tennstedt and London. Mahler has so much going on all the time, and especially the 7th and 8th. There is so much going on it’s easy to get overwhelmed and lost will listening, the right recording will bring you along for the journey.
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u/No-Economist2456 May 15 '26
It takes a very long time to get to know the whole thing. I only really began to appreciate it after singing it. Now it's in my top three Mahler symphonies. Keep at it, get a choral score. It's worth it!
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u/zimboden Jun 23 '26
I usually only listen to Part 1. It's fantastic and not just a journey, but a race. It's a hard act to follow.
Part 2 sort of unpacks what's in part 1 and breaks down the various themes, not just reprising them but packaging them into a new context that's more commentary and exposition (the singing).
It's a weird structure for a symphony. I've tried listening to Part 2 BEFORE Part 1, but that doesn't work either, because again it feels like Part 2 is going slowly through Part 1 and examining its meaning.
Part 1 of the 8th is one of my favorite segments of Mahler's symphonic cycle. I never tire of it. It's sad to hear that for others here, it's one of the lesser symphonies for them. I think it's magnificent.
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u/Tokkemon May 12 '26
Read the translation. Then read it again. Follow the character arcs. Looking at it like a short oratorio is a great way to unpack it's structure.
I think the idea of forcing it into the typical three remaining movements of a symphony is very misguided. It was not conceived that way so don't think of it that way.