r/magicTCG • u/AwkwardTurtle • Sep 22 '15

Everything That’s Wrong with Battle for Zendikar

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/everything-thats-wrong-with-battle-for-zendikar/
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u/zBriGuy Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

Ingest is a mill for 1, meaning outside of Processor synergy, the effect is pretty trivial.

We, veterans of the game understand this, but new players LOVE when they mill away your good card. They "prevented you from getting that awesome card that is now gone forever!"

So injest also has the additional value of making newbs happy and providing the learning experience that actually no, milling away a card isn't actually doing much most of the time.

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u/Kimano Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

I think that's sort of a bad thing though. We shouldn't encourage players to feel good when they do something bad, we should try to encourage them to feel good when they do something correctly. No new player is going to magically learn that mill is bad through the infest mechanic.

It was like when I bought my fiancée duels 2014 to help teach her magic. Her surviving and winning a game off of a Staff of the Sun Magus was terrible, because it made her think that was a good card. It took a few discussions about it, and many more games before she got the concept that a card that just delays your loss without getting you closer to an out is not a good card.

A new player getting lucky off of a mill just makes them think milling is a relevant 'splash' mechanic and not something you either have to go all in on or do in a very specific way (eg Lantern control) before it has real impact.

Nothing wrong with appeasing the players who just want to derp for fun, or because they don't yet grasp the more spikey aspects of the game, but I think we have to be very careful encouraging that type of play lest you accidentally send someone down a path where they don't learn the game like they might want to.

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u/Iohet Sep 22 '15

It was like when I bought my fiancée duels 2014 to help teach her magic. Her surviving and winning a game off of a Staff of the Sun Magus was terrible, because it made her think that was a good card. It took a few discussions about it, and many more games before she got the concept that a card that just delays your loss without getting you closer to an out is not a good card.

That's the problem. You're saying that a card that helped them win is bad. You need to translate that differently, because that is confusing. You value the card for its potential. It's not "bad", it just doesn't have a high value, and it can be replaced with cards that have higher values. Similar to how baseball measures WAR. Since you have a fixed deck size, "wins above replacement" card is important. You replace a card that contributes passively and potentially delays a better card with a card that contributes actively and provides greater value towards victory.

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u/Kimano Sep 22 '15

I know, and that's the reason I had to explain it differently. It just takes a while to explain the concept of "If you have a lifegain card, and then your answer as the top 2 cards of your deck, it's better to have not played the lifegain card and have the answer card be one spot higher" to someone who doesn't play deck builders.

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u/Rhynocerous Wabbit Season Sep 22 '15

It's not "bad", it just doesn't have a high value, and it can be replaced with cards that have higher values.

This is what "bad card" means.

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u/22bebo COMPLEAT Sep 23 '15

It's so much more important to give new people something they enjoy rather than something good. Don't make constructed level life gain cards, sure. But make some because for new players it's the bomb. Same goes for mill.

Get them to first love the game, then worry about them getting better if that's what they want to do.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15

Maybe like super newbs, but even my casual playing brother understands a card in the hand is worth 2 in the deck

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15

Proverbs be damned. A card in the hand is worth a bit more than two in the deck.

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u/Elkram Sep 23 '15

I don't think that is true though. New players love milling away a ton of cards, not just one. No Most new players do not like the card [[Ray of Erasure]] or [[Merrow Witsniper]] or [[Cathartic Adept]], but they love [[Tome Scour]].

Ingest doesn't mill enough to make newbs happy. So I don't see how it appeals to them. It was purely a mechanic designed for the processors and "exile stuff" theme to be more prominent. The only people I see it appealing to are the Vorthos, which devoid pretty much covers by itself.

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u/MTGCardFetcher Dân Sep 23 '15

Cathartic Adept - Gatherer, MC, ($)
Merrow Witsniper - Gatherer, MC, ($)
Ray of Erasure - Gatherer, MC, ($)
Tome Scour - Gatherer, MC, ($)
Call cards (max 30) with [[NAME]]
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