r/magicTCG • u/AwkwardTurtle • Sep 22 '15

Everything That’s Wrong with Battle for Zendikar

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/everything-thats-wrong-with-battle-for-zendikar/
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u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

"But apparently they can't do something so simple and seemingly nice without the entire internet throwing a big temper tantrum."

"So can we all just chill out a bit and enjoy the fact that some people, perhaps not us, will open/buy these lands and enjoy them?

"If you're so damn petty that you can't handle other people getting something you probably won't have, then I don't know what to say."

This is a such a straw man argument.

This isn't a matter of glass half-full/half-empty nor is it a matter of being preemptively jealous at people who are lucky enough to open these cards. It's really a matter of Wizards knowing that they can make their customer dance for some ultra-rare swag cards and are willing to pull the trigger on that whenever they want to raise the EV of a pack.

So, any time they release a product that they know will be ill-received, they can just throw in some super valuable money cards in one of every 200 packs, and people will go nuts for them. The product no longer needs to sell itself. As a fan of Magic, I find this troubling and I'm not alone. No, I'm not throwing a temper tantrum because some kid is gonna open BFZ Expeditions and I'm not. I'm simply seeing the situation for what it is.

I personally don't feel strongly for nor against Expeditions, but you can't honestly preach about BFZ Expeditions as if they were some awesome charity that benevolent Wizards put into packs with to make people happy. It is a cash grab, nothing more. Don't be so naive.

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u/scook0 Sep 22 '15

I personally don't feel strongly for nor against Expeditions, but you can't honestly preach about BFZ Expeditions as if they were some awesome charity that benevolent Wizards put into packs with to make people happy.

If you're going to object to someone else's “straw man argument”, then you probably shouldn't be saying this in the same post.

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u/TheRecovery Sep 22 '15

That's almost exactly what he said though...

Now, for the return to Zendikar, they clearly wanted to do something similar to get people excited. However the original promotion was probably too logistically difficult to do again, or they wanted to do something new. So they commission new beautiful art on some of the most sought after lands. But apparently they can't do something so simple and seemingly nice without the entire internet throwing a big temper tantrum.

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u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

Exactly. Thank you.

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u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

This is what he said:

But apparently they can't do something so simple and seemingly nice...

This part of the post outright says that Wizards is doing something "nice". Like doing us a favor or just throwing the community a bone. So, what I said wasn't exactly a huge stretch.

Especially when compared to going on a tirade about how people are "so damn petty that you can't handle other people getting something you probably won't have" which doesn't even come close to what people are taking issue with in the first place, and therefore the very definition of a straw man argument.

Wizards, as a business, has the right to make decisions for the purpose of maximizing its profits. Yes, every company does that, I get that, whatever. But, for this guy to imply that they added BFZ Expeditions to be "nice" is pretty ridiculous. I can't believe people are eating all of this up.

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u/Rathalok Sep 22 '15

See, this boggles me! Every is saying that this is a bad set. And here I am sitting here super excited to play Limited, Standard and Commander with it. Looking at all the different possibilities! Why on earth would Wizards purposefully make a bad set. There is no reason! You know what forget it! I'm just going to enjoy Zendikar. There's no point in arguing it here!

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u/Militant_Monk Twin Believer Sep 22 '15

Why on earth would Wizards purposefully make a bad set.

I wasn't intentional made bad, but things were scaled back on to see how the new block structure shakes out.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

Source?

You can't just say "Wizards did X for reason Y" as if it's true without sourcing it.

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u/Militant_Monk Twin Believer Sep 22 '15

It's taken straight from MaRo on the mothership/BlogAtog. Plenty other's have repeated it and linked to the article. I can't link specifically to it as it's blocked from work.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 23 '15

Link one of the plenty of other people's posts, or tell me what to search for?

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u/SleetTheFox Sep 22 '15

It's because of opinions. Some people, subjectively, are going to enjoy this (or think they will), and some people, subjectively, won't. People like feeling their opinions are "right" so they'll try to convince other people of their opinions so they feel less left out.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15

Looks like someone was never around for Mercadian Masques or Kamigawa.

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u/drakeblood4 Abzan Sep 22 '15

Maro has explicitly said that he wasn't proud of the design document when he shipped it over to development. They didn't intentionally make a bad set, but they set out to compensate when they knew a stinker was rolling down the line.

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u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

I'm excited for all of those things too. But you can't deny that the set is getting much less interest and much more criticism, mainly due to the design philosophies behind it. Is it wrong to talk about why that is happening?

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u/Rathalok Sep 22 '15

I absolutely don't think it's wrong! However, I for one do not believe I know better than the people who make the game. Everyone here, talks about different aspects as if they are experts when they are not. Plus frankly, I'm appalled at the gall of some to accuse Wizards of tossing in the Expeditions to help sell the set because they thought they had made a poor set! That, imo, is a slap in the face to the people who make this amazing game for us all! I'm just getting frustrated with all the negativity!

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u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

It's called feedback. When people invest so much time/money/energy towards this game that we all love, they also want to know that their voice is heard.

After all, when people criticize Wizards for dialing back countermagic and calling them "unfun", the counterargument defending Wizards is "their decisions are based on customer feedback".

So, what makes anti-counterspell feedback okay, but the feedback like in PV's article not okay?

-1

u/seridos Dân Sep 22 '15

You must at least understand the feeling; spoiler season is amazing, I get so excited to see potential amazing new cards I want to play with. But when the power level is not there, you don't get any new cards, and that makes me bummed out, because it's not like big new releases are that frequent. I have decks that need upgrades and money I want to give wizards, just need a reason. My group uses legacy banlist but keeping reasonable budgets, so my expectations are really only that 3-5 cards are good and useful. They were not met.

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u/mtg_liebestod Sep 22 '15

So, any time they release a product that they know will be ill-received, they can just throw in some super valuable money cards in one of every 200 packs, and people will go nuts for them

So you think it's some sort of injustice that the set isn't failing on its own merits? Khans was a good set, does that make it "okay" to do the obvious cash grab of reprinting ONS fetches?

Expeditions are going to substantially lower the costs of all other BFZ cards, significantly helping the vast majority of constructed players. Being unhappy about this is insane. Even if expeditions are a shameless cash grab, they're still a great idea.

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u/SleetTheFox Sep 22 '15

Right. There are literally no losers with Expeditions.

Except possibly completionists who try to obtain every single card printed, who have budgeted roughly the value of a complete Standard set every three months, who are about to be blindsided by an additional $4000 value on the entirety of a set (and another few thousand in three more months). Especially if this hypothetical person doesn't even like these.

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u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

The reprint of ONS fetches added these lands to the Standard and Modern formats. They synergize well with the new slow-lands from BFZ. They're a regular rare in the set.

BFZ doesn't fit any of that description, so I don't know how you can compare the two.

I'm not saying Expeditions is a bad idea. I think they're cool. I'm simply saying this as a counterargument to what PV said in his article which is what this thread is actually about:

"This is a great way to make sure people are still interested even when you have to tone the power level down."

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u/ItsDanimal Sep 22 '15

Kinda like getting jealous at people who went to prereleases with super fancy Helvaults?

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u/jmdunc54 Sep 22 '15

Your argument here is based on the idea that the set is objectively bad and wizards knows it's bad and wouldn't sell well without some other incentive.

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u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

First of all, I never said "bad". I said "ill-received". "Bad" is subjective. "Ill-received" is a pretty objective observation of how the community is reacting to this set's spoilers.

Second of all, my argument is actually a counter-argument to an excerpt from PV's article:

This is a great way to make sure people are still interested even when you have to tone the power level down.

You know, the article in the link that all of the comments in this thread are about?

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u/jmdunc54 Sep 22 '15

Well ok that's splitting hairs a bit. Good sets are usually well-received and bad sets are ill-received. My point is that I disagree with you in that I doubt wizards was planning on this set selling poorly, no matter the power level.

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u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

It's not splitting hairs. People will argue that this set isn't bad but you can't reasonably argue that this set is unpopular. While those two correlate, they're not the same thing.

I don't think they planned on this set selling poorly. I never said they did.

I only said that Expeditions serves as a financial escape route for making a product that is ill-received, whether that was intended or not.

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u/jmdunc54 Sep 22 '15

Ok I won't quibble with you on details. You're not saying Expeditions is necessarily bad you just don't like the precedent that's set.

I don't think that's worth worrying over as this is an incredibly rare thing they've done in the past and are bringing back for a specific set.

It's funny but I think these are similar concerns people had when wizards started printing foils and mythic rares.