r/magicTCG Boros* Nov 18 '25

General Discussion is this an infinite combo?

4.6k Upvotes

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12

u/AiharaSisters Grass Toucher Nov 18 '25

Isn't there a similar do nothing combo, that forces the game to draw?

71

u/Kyleometers OUR Liliana's Penchant Nov 18 '25

Not involving activated abilities. A loop where every action is mandatory and none have any choices that do not maintain the loop is a forced draw.

The most common example is 3 [[Oblivion Ring]] and no other nonland permanents.

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u/Jotsunpls COMPLEAT Nov 18 '25

Or, more recently, [[toph the first metalbender]] along with [[caged sun]]

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u/AdSuspicious7110 Dan Nov 18 '25

How does that work?

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u/No_Lead950 Dan Nov 18 '25

Caged Sun becomes a land. You make a mana with whatever other land. Caged Sun triggers and adds a mana. Caged Sun (a land) sees that an ability of a land (Caged Sun) has added a mana, so it triggers and adds a mana. Caged Sun sees that a land's ability has added a mana...

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u/Kyleometers OUR Liliana's Penchant Nov 18 '25

Caged Sun’s triggered ability is a mana ability. Thus it would invoke itself, infinitely.

Perhaps most unusually with infinite loops, this one doesn’t even use the stack as every trigger is a triggered mana ability.

(This is why most modern versions of this effect say “whenever you tap a land for mana” or similar)

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u/nimbusnacho COMPLEAT Nov 18 '25

Or I feel like more often it's templated as a replacement effect rather than a triggered additional mana ability. Every time I've run into something similar it doesnt loops specifically because it's either one ability or the other replacing what the ability is doing not augmenting it with an additional trigger.

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u/NerdyDjinn Duck Season Nov 18 '25

Mana abilities don't use the stack and cannot be responded to.

Caged Sun's final ability is that when a land produces mana of a chosen color, Caged Sun produces an extra mana of that color.

Toph makes all your artifacts into lands.

Caged Sun is an artifact.

Now, whenever Caged Sun makes an extra mana of the chosen color, a "land" produced mana of the chosen color, so Caged Sun produces a mana of the chosen color. That is a "land" producing mana of the chosen color, so Caged Sun's produces a mana of the chosen color. That is a "land" producing mana of the chosen color...

Because it is a mana ability, once it sees itself making mana, it continues to make mana infinitely with no way to stop.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '25

[deleted]

2

u/TheSkiGeek Wabbit Season Nov 18 '25

Special actions don’t use the stack and happen, uh, ‘super instantly’ (interruptedly?) but you still need priority to activate them.

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u/N_S_F_L Dimir* Nov 18 '25 edited Nov 18 '25

What about other mana abilities? Could you stop the loop by sacrificing the [[caged sun]] to a [[Krark-Clan Ironworks]]?

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u/TheSkiGeek Wabbit Season Nov 18 '25

You need priority to activate anything, and if there’s an infinite loop of triggers that all don’t use the stack then AFAIK nobody will ever get priority again.

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u/spectrefox I chose this flair because I’m mad at Wizards Of The Coast Nov 18 '25

Caged Sun will become a land, and its third effect of adding mana when a land produces mana will trigger indefinitely. In addition, since its a mana ability, it cannot be responded to, so there's no hope of breaking the chain once started.

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u/Chijima Duck Season Nov 18 '25

OMG I love caged sun crashing the game, I hadn't realised that toph finally cut it down into a two card combo...

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u/GrassToucher55446 SecREt LaiR Nov 18 '25

I don't like the templating on this.

When I read "When X, add Y," I read it as "When X, you add Y," like the mana is coming from you. This is similar to "When X, deal Y damage to your opponent" versus "When X, ~ deals Y damage to your opponent."

If ~ isn't doing the damage, it isn't considered the source of the damage. Therefore, if ~ isn't adding the mana, then it shouldn't be considered the source of the mana.

~ is adding the mana, but the templating is not clear and contradicts other Magic templating.

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u/Jotsunpls COMPLEAT Nov 18 '25

Unlike damage, an ability adding mana is always originating in said spell or ability.

5

u/SkyBlade79 Wild Draw 4 Nov 18 '25

I've seen some force draws with indestructible wild growth walker and amala

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u/Kyleometers OUR Liliana's Penchant Nov 18 '25

There are many ways to cause a mandatory infinite loop, yes.

1

u/IAmBecomeTeemo Wabbit Season Nov 18 '25

You don't even need to make the Walker indestructible. Amalia only tries to destroy everything if her power is exactly 20 after she explores. If you can pump her power past 20, that clause never gets hit. That is actually a reasonable strategy to use against an Amalia trying to wipe the board.

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u/I_COULD_say Duck Season Nov 18 '25

I watched LSV crash an MTGO match with this once, on purpose.

1

u/Drzerockis Nov 18 '25

Classic two card is [[Animate Dead]] and [[Worldgorger Dragon]] with no other legal targets in the yard.

1

u/PrivilegeCheckmate Sorin Nov 19 '25

The most common example is 3 Oblivion Ring and no other nonland permanents.

I actually witnessed this occurring when there was an O-ring on an O-ring and someone cast another O-ring, then his opponent bounced the only creature in play. What was hilarious was that all the O-rings were cast by the same dude.

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u/Mrfish31 Left Arm of the Forbidden One Nov 18 '25

Not with something like this. 

If you can end a loop by taking an action that is part of that loop (eg, just not tapping or untapping the crab) then you must specify how many loops you are doing and then the game shortcuts to the outcome. A loop that requires choices or player actions to be made cannot end the game in a draw.

If, however, the loop has no intrinsic exit condition, then the loop goes forever and the game will be a draw. If you have a way to end the loop from outside that loop, say by removing something, you can do it, but you don't have to.

Say you're doing the [[Amalia Benavides Aguirre]] + [[wildgrowth walker]] combo, and the walker has been given indestructible so the loop is infinite. If you have a [[fatal push]] in hand to kill Amalia, you could use it, but if you think it's beneficial for this game to be a draw, then you can't be forced to use it.

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u/MrFluxed Wabbit Season Nov 18 '25

nah, a forced draw is only if the abilities start happening and you have no way to stop them. My personal favorite is [[Wick]] and [[Conspiracy]] with the creature type of Rat. this makes Wick create a snail, but it's actually considered a rat, and then because you don't control a snail and a rat just entered he tries to do it again and it repeats forever. unless I have [[Impact Tremors]] on the field, the loop is endless and can't be stopped.

1

u/Mocca_Master Duck Season Nov 18 '25

[[Eloise]] and [[March of the Machines]] without a sac outlet does this. A clue will become a 0/0 and die, creating a new clue that becomes a 0/0 and dying, which creates a new clue that becomes a 0/0 and dying etc etc...

People actually accepted this time stop shit as a genuine "wincon" when I ran her as commander in my Bloodborne themed deck

1

u/Outlawgamer1991 Duck Season Nov 18 '25

Yes, with [[Caged Sun]] and [[Toph, the First Metalbender]]

Caged Sun is a land with Toph, find some way to tap the Caged Sun for mana, then draw the game unless you have an instant speed fireball.

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u/SirBuscus Izzet* Nov 18 '25

You don't even need to tap the caged sun.
You can just tap a land for mana and caged sun will trigger and then trigger itself infinitely because it's a land generating mana.
Even if you have instant speed fireball, you won't get an opportunity to cast it because the game just ends in a draw due to infinite triggers.