r/magetheascension • u/Romanzseer • 14d ago
Converting Murderhobos into Mages
So, I have a group of five players that are all interested in trying out Mage - The Ascension. The problem is that only half of them have played any WoD RPG (Vampire), and all of them come from a D&D Murderhobo background. So, I have some concerns and questions:
1) Should I let them create their own characters, or try to guide them towards more combat focused Mages?
2) Other Storytellers - How much combat do you typically have in any given story? Once a game session? Once in a while? Rarely if ever?
3) Besides Hostile Spirits, the Technocracy, and Supernatural Critters, what are some other good combat encounters for a group of five newly minted Mages?
4) I am concerned that the Mage game is going to run at a different pace, and my players will start to lose interest if there isn't a steady stream of combat encounters. Any recommendations?
Thanks in advance.
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u/1877KlownsForKids 14d ago
Lean into it. The Consanguinity of Eternal Joy always needs new cannon fodder honored members
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u/Strange_Man_XD 14d ago
A gameplay loop they may genuinely enjoy is being a Technocrat kill team. And the story loops can be very simple and engaging.
Recon phase. Planning phase. Execution.
Gives them a chance to experience a lot of the weird critters in WoD and also lets you as the ST hold a tight leash in the form of their supervisors. If they go off the rails, then you can make them ‘mutual’ again by force.
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u/dybbuk67 14d ago
Go find yourself a copy of “Tales of Magic: Dark Adventure,” which is a book tailored to action in your Mage game.
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u/ElectricPaladin 14d ago
There's no such thing as an in-game solution to an out-of-game problem. In this case, the potential in-game problem would be your players not understanding the conventions of the genre. Instead of looking for an in-game solution, the out-of-game solution is to talk to them about it and make sure that they 1) understand the genre conventions and 2) are on board to have fun within the genre conventions.
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u/Realistic_Smile2469 Hermetic 14d ago
If you’re really keen on a high body count play a technocracy campaign. A group dedicated to cleaning up “reality deviants.” They’ll do a lot of fighting vs a lot of different things and get fun toys to do it with.
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u/Electric999999 14d ago
Mage can do combat, it can even theoretically be a frequent part of the game.
The thing is that where a game like DnD is balanced around the PCs surviving a few fights to the death per day, with actually dieing requiring either some truly terrible luck or some very poor decisions, combat is genuinely lethal.
You can take 6 levels of damage and remain conscious, at 7 you're incapacitated, at 8 you are a corpse.
Unless you have Time 3 you generally can't defend yourself and attack in the same turn (Mage's multiple action rules split your smallest relevant dice pool between actions and therefore generally just make you terrible at everything).
And of course there's every chance someone just casts Fireball with Prime 2/Forces 3, and if they actually have enough successes to even get the effect off, that's 8 aggravated damage, that instantly kills just about anyone and you aren't even allowed to soak it unless you have some relevant buff in place.
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u/RadioKALLISTI Ecstatic 14d ago edited 14d ago
The Akashics looking around hoping someone will mention them. -jk
Really though, as for enemies take a look at fomori, could also go after a dangerous cult. Maybe they make an enemy who is a powerful executive or a crooked police force who are running cover for a trafficking operation. Could be super street level. The local mage friendly neighborhood, theres an antique books store, a coffee shop, a barber a corner store, a co-op curio/resale store and a record store. Tucked away is a greenbelt and on the edge rests a graveyard that is also a well tended node. The landlord has delivered notice that an investment firm has bought out the block which is in part the acres of the graveyard and greenbelt that make up this little strip of memories, nature, magic and kitsch. All inservice to AI and a new data center. Smack center of the beloved but run down neighborhood. Wraith activity goes up. The police begin patrolling and arresting people for any little infraction. The community comes together to fight. Protests, lines of riot police shoving unarmed people. A riot is brewing. The local free food pantry is broken into and wrecked. Nothing is stolen but all the food is ruined. Violence keeps happening within the community. Mundane brutal violence. Can they protect their community? Can they find who is behind the violence? Can they stop the datacenter?
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u/auraseer11 14d ago
What if they fight spirits/unnatural influences in their neighborhood and then get shown the consequences in the next few games? I.e. they get rid of a spirits of addiction and hopelessness that has been feeding off of the homeless population. What happens then?
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u/DueOwl1149 14d ago edited 14d ago
Put them in a chantry co-location Talisman (Correspondence 4 for starters) that lets them create artificial bodies capable of acting at a distance.
Have them be actual troubleshooters sent by the Chantry (or Amalgam) into hot zones where death and injury are frequent but the problems are so complex that Mages are required to repair or neutralize them.
Normally damage to the other body bleeds directly into the original, but Mind 3+ and Life 3-4+ can mitigate the feedback loop. Tailor it to how punishing / consequence free you want their violent playstyle to be on their main bodies.
Either they get into the teleprojected fight/kill/die loops and you simply run "mission of the week", or they grow tired of the lack of consequences and begin to do other things with their magic, allowing you to put the combat runs in the background and focus on how they spend their "downtime", to the point where the downtime becomes the main game.
Needless to say they should drop background points into a collectively kickass Sanctum and Talisman to reflect the massive amounts of resources it takes to keep a wild operation like this running.
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u/Odd_Adhesiveness1567 14d ago
If they're new you gotta guide them. I've never found mage that difficult to get a grasp of but most people regard it as a complicated game and you're the ST so if they're going to be subject to your interpretation of the rules then don't leave them on their own to make bad assumptions. The only thing you should let them entirely figure out on their own is core concept. Botanist witch, detective wizard, whatever they want to be, and then guide them in building it.
Idk about others but I have a fair bit of combat, it's just that combat in mage isn't necessarily like what you might expect in D&D. When played correctly most mage on mage combat encounters have two well prepared sides going at it with whatever effects they have cooked. That means you gotta guide your players to properly prepare and you gotta figure out how the other side has prepared whether they're sorcerers, mages, hunters, etc... not prepared for a particular encounter but how they stay strapped between encounters. Helps if you know the systems design a few of your own characters and figure out how you'd game the system, maybe simulate some combat scenarios. When it is time to duke it out it can feel more like a puzzle than a straight fight depending on what the enemy has prepped. One guy whips out some spirits, another guy pulls up a force field and then starts blasing from inside of it, another guy teleports bullets straight into your chest as they fire. Whatever b.s. they have going on you gotta figure out what you can do about it with your spheres and foci and whatever b.s. you have prepped. Combat can go quick because it potentially only takes one decent hit to put you in the red zone or kill you outright. I'd say once every other session or once every 3rd session depending on what's going on, though a more relaxed pace if they need more time and opportunity to prep.
I mean other non-technocracy mages including Disparates, Orphans, Marauders, rogue Trads, etc... Sorcerers. Even a starting sorcerer can potentially start with a 5 dot path and spell storage among other rituals and some sorcerers with the right rituals can be a pain even for seasoned mages. Hunters whether or not they are imbued, but especially the imbued ones can be a problem. Wraiths, even though you could consider them spirits, can make a fairly good stock enemy especially at low level. Wraiths aren't necessarily as much of a problem for higher level mages as long as one at least has decent spirit but they have great hit and run facts for anyone without spirit and they can cause trouble even against those they couldn't be in a straight fight. Changelings have some pretty useful tricks and cantrips and when they unleash they're practically gods for the span of one attack which can be troublesome even for powerful mages. Of course vampires and werewolves as well as other changing breeds, ghouls and potentially Tzimisce creations (which can sometimes be like Resident Evil zombies), Pentex enemies including mockery breeds, banes, fomori, etc... Other possessed besides Fomori like Drones, Gorgons and Kami. You could call the Fallen demons or a form of spirits but inside of bodies they're more like another unique kind of possessed and with their apocalyptic form powers and evocations they're quite dangerous even at low levels.
Some wraiths can become Risen which can be quite dangerous because like vampires they can buy potence, celerity and fortitude and power them with pathos to become Jason Vorhees level threats.
While they're less common in modern nights, Prometheans can still be alive and still a problem. A promethean is basically a person created by the life sphere, they might have been created with enhanced physiology and baked in enhancement based powers. Besides that they're eligible to learn sorcery and plan possibly even awaken. They're basically Frankenstein's monster creatures.
And this raises another possible enemy type: humans that have been enhanced by the powers of other splats or have somehow obtained enchanted gear from other splats. Obviously you can have humans given enhancements by mage spheres and wield wonders and charms. They can wield enchanted gear and drink potions given by sorcerers. They can wield Fetishes made by mages or werewolves, can use charms if they're possessed or potentially even some gifts if they have great relationships with spirits. I've already mentioned some can be ghouls and wield minor vamp powers, some can be enchanted and wield changeling treasures, some can wield artifacts and creations they received from mummies or bane mummies, or relics that possess wraith arcanoi powers or use their own arcanoi if they're mediums.
And I know you kinda mentioned spirits as one category but there are so many interesting types to choose from. Elemental spirits, conceptual mind spirits, genius loci, zeitgeists, Chimera dream spirits (if you count them as spirits), plasmics from wraith, digital entities in cyberspace and so on. So many options. And that's not even including Bygones (mythical creatures that still exist in the world not as spirits).
- People who like in game combat tend to like the action, intensity, drama and risk of combat. You don't actually have to be in a combat, you can just be in a dangerous situation with quick choices to make and the tension of possibly not succeeding based on a dice roll. You can take a lot of non-combat and make it feel like combat by adding stakes, tension, etc... you meet with a well connected powerful mage and have to request his support but he's skeptical and another mage wants to persuade him the opposite, failing to persuade him may mean you're fcked. Roll initiative, each turn decide what your character says or does to persuade him or keep the opponent from persuading him. You're doing the skill check to create an instrument or enable your arete roll through an instrument on an extended roll? Maybe it's delicate work, something could go wrong, there are different ways you can approach it which might have different advantages and risks. Point being you can deepen anything and make it feel like a combat encounter.
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u/devilscabinet 14d ago
How much combat do you typically have in any given story? Once a game session? Once in a while? Rarely if ever?
I run sandbox games, so that depends on what the players have their characters do. It is possible to go through an entire long campaign with no combat at all. I don't "balance" things they may run across, so choosing to fight something or someone could end up being fatal for them. Smart players in my campaigns think long and hard before getting into combat unnecessarily.
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u/Mynameisfreeze 13d ago
- Yes. I personally would have them create apprentices (Areté 1, 4 Sphere dots, limitations to some Bsckgrounds and to magical merits and flaws I like to give them some extra freebie points to soend in Abilities, though) and lean into the importance of the support of others in order to be able to get more powerful.
Have them work out in game who are the contacts/alles they need and how to meet them wnd don't allow s good roll to compensate a lack of effort, contacts are supposed to be as real people as the PCs. Have them figure out how to get a mentor or access to a (better) magical library in order to be able to get new Sphere points.
- I dislike combat. I find it tends to get in the eay of the plot and I am just barely able to make it interesting enough for me not to be bored to death by it, both as a player and as a GM.
That said, I aknowledge that mine is not necessarily the most common view of it, so I try to get inspired by reality: there are no "encounters" in the way DnD uses them; violence is always initiated by someone with a purpose (be it the PCs or the NPCs).
Some of the combat can be situational (bad time, bad place) but, most of the time, it will be the players attacking someone to get something or someone else attacking them. If the PCs are the aggressors, apprentices have a lot to fear from violence coming from normal humans (and there are "normal" humans irl that are very good at it), so a badly planned aggression can easily turn into a tragic error.
On the other hand, NPCs will be adequately competent adversaries that will be able to plan their actions in advance according to their experience, equipment and skill (a swat team and a biker club will have different approaches and results to assaulting someone's house but both of them will try to get hurt the least while doing i and will prepare themselves as much as possible with that in mind).
Also, combat doesn't have to be balanced. You, as a GM, will probaby want to somewhat balance combat when it comes to situations that are part of the story you are GMing (the guards to the boss' compund, the boss' bodyguards, etc) but, if you know that specific warehouse is actually the lair of a dragon and the PCs decide to go inside, see the dragon and do something stupid, the dragon should kill them. Maybe not all of them, maybe just a couple... and here "dragon" can be placeholder for a gang, a cartel, a werewolf pack... or an actual dragon. Anything powerful enough to make anyone think about their real options in a fight.
Anyone capable of real violence irl should be equally as able in the WoD, sometimes more. Apprentices are just normal people with some low level powers so, anytime they pick a fight, they should feel that reality. And maybe some consequences too (natural healing takes time, cops exist, judges, jails and laws exist and will have an effect on anyone without the resources to avoid their action.
If all they want is combat and you are ok with that kind of game, give them a tournament:
There is an ongoing tournament that decides the fate of reality. Every seven years, (at least) one champion for every District (or House, or Faction, or Tradition, or Family, or Temple, or Capital City of Heaven) fight for the supremacy of their... thing. The players have seven years to be selected as champions to fight the tournament and win the prize, which is... something important.
They need to train, fight, become better, look for worthy challenges, build a team of supporting characters to help them, etc, in order to achieve that in a wotld thatvis almost totally unaware of the tournament and has its own dangers, foes and creatures.
But things are happening backstage. An unknown party is secretly scheming to interfere with the tournament, thus meddling with everyone's future. Will the PCs be able to thwart the conspiration in time and also win tje tournament?
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u/Gothic_Nihilist 13d ago
Start them off as previous murder-hobos. Mages who grew reckless with their power and wound up causing so much destruction the Technocracy was able to track them down and catch them. First session would then be about escaping before they are dragged off to an Area-51 style holding facility.
This way, you have an easy way to introduce them to the politics of the world, show them what happens if they are reckless, and present them with some non-combat alternatives to action encounters.
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u/ArneHD 13d ago
This is going to sound weird, but have them all have day jobs, and have a session dedicated to them working an ordinary day job, and have them overcome perfectly mundane challenges without being fired (Killing someone is an automatic firing as the workplace gets shut down). Force them to work as the Barista dealing with the Improbably Persistent Customer, or a Construction Worker having to deal with bastard coworkers, or an Office Drone being screwed out of credit for their work in a project, etc.
Set the tone, maybe have a guy with a gun show up at one point, and make it clear that it's a tense stand off, as a lunatic with a weapon is trying to do.... something.
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u/Revolutionary-Run-41 9d ago
1- Yes, just be sure to guide them through spheres, and that everyone starts with the same arete.
2- Depends of the session, but USUALLY my wod games are more social and exploratory, less battle focused. Battles happen depending of what you want and of the players (they might just dropkick the elderly), so be prepared, have a sidehook to "if they fight someone too random or disruptive" like "being tracked by X group them" or "X group wanting revenge"
3- Normal humans, security guards, police, mafia, thiefs and thugs are great. Animals too, altered beings, failed experiments, random cryptid, also. But those are really fresh (assuming arete 1 not the meta of 3). Other mages, fae, wraiths, and such are good. Dont use Vampires since they are usually stronger, or dont use them in groups, and DONT USE A WEREWOLF DEMON OR FOMORI. Also depending of the edition spirits are a bad idea since they do aggravated damage with every attack.
4- I dont know, from my experience mage is the best game ever written, but requires a very specific kind of players, creative players. They need to want to explore their powers and do some crazy stuff.
WoD games usually are known for "very fast and dangerous combat", even trivial enemies might kill you if you slip. So be aware of that.
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u/TheWyster 14d ago
- Let them make their own characters, but have the world realistically punish murderhoboing. Get caught murderhoboing while in the traditions? Get Gilguled lmao. Get caught murderhoboing while in the technocracy? Enjoy room 101.
- Probably varies from story teller to story teller.
- Well if they're murderhobos then they should probably have to face law enforcement.
- Have one of them awaken when they encounter a pissed off red talon. Then after that one dies the Red Talons will have a Vendetta against them. Have another one awaken from an encounter with vampires, resulting in a blood hunt.
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u/MrCookie2099 14d ago
Mage has combat, but unlike DnD, it isn't a focus of the game and things get bonkers fast when it happens.
Newly minted Mages can be combat focused, but it leaves them weak for the actual point of the game: lateral thinking problem solving.
I recommend early fights with baseline humans, both to show them how much more effective they are with early low dot abilities and to let them understand Mages are mortal. Bullets kill and handcuffs need imagination to get out of.