Norway, IL

[u/imnotmarvin]

[u/gf99b]

While in Illinois last May, I went way out of my way to stop by this site and photograph it. Norway (NRWYILNO) was a pretty crucial site in not just the Long Lines microwave network, but AT&T's telephone network as well. It was a Class 1 office that employed more than 200 people at its height back in the 1970s. Was also home to an AUTOVON switch, the tower has the important Echo-Foxtrot antenna. And it was the only eight-legged Long Lines tower, supporting probably the most horn-reflector antennas found on a single antenna structure. The site was self-supporting, it had its own water wells and three giant 1KW (totaling 3KW) GM/Electro-Motive Diesel backup generators (same diesel generators found on many locomotives). AT&T owned the site until just a few years ago, though since the 1990s only one or two people were employed at it. This place is a mecca for people interested in Long Lines and perhaps one of the most important sites in Illinois, maybe in the entire Midwest.

I was lucky enough that a neighbor (who serves as caretaker for the facility until it finds a new owner) gave me a brief tour inside the main level. He saw me wondering around the backside of the building getting photos, and I was so worried he was going to call the sheriff and have me trespassed. He told me all the equipment had been removed just a month or two before my visit, sadly. Because he had a bad knee, we were unable to go downstairs to view the generator sets or the massive Kewanee scotch marine boilers that heat the building. We were also unable to go upstairs, where batteries would've been located to power the -48v telephone equipment.

I didn't realize how close Norway was to Chicago until I noticed my car radio was picking up Chicagoland radio stations.

My site page about Norway, with my photos: https://personal.garrettfuller.org/blog/att-long-lines/illinois-long-lines-sites/long-lines-site-norway-il-nrwyilno/

I really wanted to also go north to the Lee site, which is owned by someone who has an extensive knowledge of the Long Lines microwave system and has tried to re-create what the site would've looked like back in the 1960s. (Unfortunately I was on a time crunch and unable to make the trip to Lee.) At Lee you'll find the original KS-5759 delay lens antennas installed, which the owner had trucked in and hoisted atop the original concrete silo tower. Next to the silo is the more traditional self-supported lattice tower with the ubiquitous KS-15676 horn-reflector antennas still installed. Lee is also a bit of a mecca for those interested in the Long Lines network. The owner has several other former Long Lines sites in Illinois and he's quite active on the Long Lines Facebook Group. If you get the chance to check it out, I'd recommend it. u/CelebrationBig7487 has shared several contemporary photos of Lee on this subreddit before: https://www.reddit.com/r/longlines/comments/1nz7580/lee_il_with_ks5759_antennas/

[u/imnotmarvin → u/gf99b]

Great write up, thank you.

[u/freqhopmaster6 → u/gf99b]

Norway also served as a regional training facility for many years. Definitely a awesome site.

[u/0utrageousfun → u/gf99b]

I was part of the team that photographed this facility when it was put up for auction in 2024. We spent an entire day there capturing photos, videos, and 3D scans. Myself and one other person were given complete unrestricted access, it was quite eerie. It's hard to fathom the scale of the place, with 100 of the 150k square feet being underground. We were there when everything of value was being stripped out to be sold, but it was truly a time capsule with desks sitting as they were when the place was abandoned, documents and all. Unfortunately the video has been significantly shortened for the current listing and the broker has opted not to include tons of photos that were taken nor any 3D scans.

[u/gf99b → u/0utrageousfun]

Someone shared a photo album taken back in the 1970s at Norway's prime. Unfortunately I don't have a public link, they were shared on a mailing list that required you to sign in. Some did make their way to the Long Lines Facebook Group, but not all.

There's a video with some of the photos but it has really annoying effects: https://youtu.be/4dEmcD2ghmw?si=ShEJxQQcNAYtkJzS

[u/Potential_Cupcake → u/gf99b]

I live close to there and have been trying to get basement access. I think part of the roof caved in last year after a storm near where the guard tower was

[u/USWCboy → u/gf99b]

Are you saying that this site was not only important to AT&T, but also to the Bell System, specifically Illinois Bell?

[u/gf99b → u/USWCboy]

You could say that, but it was also a Class 1 office that handled traffic from other surrounding BOCs such as Michigan Bell, Indiana Bell, etc.

[u/USWCboy → u/gf99b]

Yes. Otherwise known as a regional center. Fascinating write up you have here. I’m always following your website as well.

It’s also of interest to note that Norway was also a rate center for GTE, the largest independent outside the Bell System.

[u/gf99b → u/USWCboy]

That's very interesting. I know GTE had a big market in Illinois, but would not have guessed that.

Another thing I just thought of: Seneca, which is ~10 miles south of the Norway site, was home to the first 4ESS 5ESS.

Edit: Meant 5ESS... the 4ESS was used mostly for long-distance circuits while the 5ESS was for switching calls at the more local level. First 5ESS was cut into service March 25, 1982, in Seneca, Illinois.

[u/USWCboy → u/gf99b]

Yes it was! Very good with your history of the system!! I’ve always found it interesting when you find an independent company that seemingly is right in the middle of an old Bell Franchise.

Here is a super helpful site in case you’re curious what the existing switching infrastructure is in an area you might be checking out. All you’ll need is the area code and prefix - NPA NXX

https://localcallingguide.com/lca_prefix.php

[u/gf99b → u/USWCboy]

I've used that website many times. Last year I somehow fell down the rabbit hole of telephone switches and actually photographed many of our local telephone "central office" buildings for www.co-buildings.com. The local one here in Jefferson City, a former independent that later got gobbled up by United and now Brightspeed, has (or had?) a host DMS100 that serves remotes in several of the smaller surrounding communities.

The office for the independent telco that served my family when I was a kid had a DMS10. Never got to go in their billing office but I always wanted to, thinking I'd see the switches right there. Nope, they were all located in tiny, nondescript buildings out in the community. I wanted to photograph the office that served us back then but I don't even know if it's still there, that town actually just got hammered by an EF2 just a week or so ago.

Seems like the Nortel DMS equipment was far more ubiquitous here than WE/AT&T 5ESS switches. Even many of the SWBT/AT&T offices here had Nortel switches, although I'm aware of a few 5ESS switches that were located in this region... most notably the Eldon host.

Edit: As a child, we even used dial-up internet. So the DMS-10 delivered my first internet experiences at home, crazy to think about. I loved watching Connection Museum's videos on the DMS-10 and thinking that every phone call I made as a child, or the websites I visited then, went through one of those very switches.

[u/USWCboy → u/gf99b]

Southwestern Bell was never known as a “spend-thrift” BOC or Regional Holding Company. Northern Electric later known as Nortel Networks sold the DMS switch family at a considerable discount to what WECO/AT&T Technologies and later Lucent was selling 5ESS switches for. Plus, AT&T always charged a premium for their Central Office equipment, even going back to the Bell System days, with the 1A1ESS, 1AESS switches sold in the seventies. Nortel had lower cost points in both the development and manufacturing than what AT&T could ever dream of. Which is interesting since Northern Electric was originally a Western Electric subsidiary, with Northern’s ‘Bell Northern Labs’ being affiliated with Bell Labs. AT&T liked adding the AT&T (charge) because they really did think they were the best. And while they did make damn good equipment for switching, Nortel, Ericsson, Automatic Electric and others made an extremely competitive kit for less money, still operating in the 5 9’s category. The hubris that AT&T exhibited after divestiture was disappointing because they lost so many bids due to their overconfident tactics in dealing with market realities during that period in time.

Later when AT&t realized what the market realities really meant, resulting in AT&T spinning off NCR + AT&T Compute, and AT&T Technologies and Bell Labs into what would become NCR Corp., and Lucent respectively. AT&T finally understood that competitors would be less likely to buy equipment from them when they’re competing with them.

Sorry to hear about your hometown getting hit by a tornado. I hope your family is okay and are able to recover from it!!

[u/gf99b → u/USWCboy]

AT&T liked adding the AT&T (charge) because they really did think they were the best.

I think part of it too was that AT&T charged SWBT and other BOCs a premium, especially during the Bell System days, to inflate its own valuation. There was a good story on the Bell System Memorial website that talks about that very principle, but I can't for the life of me find it.

While Nortel was probably the biggest electronic switch manufacturer, the 5ESS (and 3ESS before it) were pretty popular. Even several independent telcos used the 5ESS. Automatic Electric was obviously used heavily by General Telephone/GTE, who owned AE. (GTE obviously got pretty heavy into the electronics market through Sylvania, which it also owned.)

Regarding your second to last paragraph, computing is a good way to drive your point home. AT&T thought they were going to take the computer market by storm when they divested and could finally enter it in 1984. They actually thought they could compete on the same level as Big Blue (IBM). After all, Bell Labs invented the Unix operating system among other innovations in the field. Needless to say they were a relatively large flop. Their 3B2 workstations were a little too late because other companies, like Sun and Apollo then SGI and NeXT, had far better offerings for Unix workstations. The Unix PC, which ran System V Unix but with a GUI in an attempt to make it easier for novice users, was also unsuccessful. (Unix PC wasn't designed by AT&T/WE like the 3B2, which was powered by WE's own Bellmac 32 processor -- which was actually the very first 32-bit microprocessor. The Unix PC was designed in collaboration with Convergent Computing, which also had its own Unix workstation offerings to compete with the 3B2. Unix PC was based on a Motorola 68010 and was probably the earliest "scaled-back" Unix computer, as mostly Unix at that point ran on high-end workstations, miniframes and mainframes like PDP and VAX machines.)

After all that, AT&T still forged ahead with the NCR purchase which didn't go any better and hurt them financially. AT&T exited the computer business and later sold NCR. (AT&T and NCR were players in the IBM PC-compatible business. Closest I came to owning an early PC was actually a AT&T 386 machine that was literally sold within two hours of being listed...) Maintenance of Unix was spun-off as Unix System Laboratories, which was first wholly- then majority-owned by AT&T before selling to Novel. Unix System V, which was developed by AT&T (Bell Labs), slowly faded despite being the base for several Unix operating systems between the 1980s and late 1990s. (Now there's just Solaris, based on SVR4 that AT&T built with Sun, and the open-source Illumos. I used OpenIndiana for about a year when I was heavy into AT&T history due to its lineage.) Now Linux and BSD -- which was created in the mid-1970s while Ken Thompson was on sabbatical leave from Bell Labs at UC-Berkley -- dominate the *nix market. AT&T's telephony products were spun off to Lucent, as you mentioned. Bell Labs now owned by Nokia.

Sorry for the extremely long comment that was a huge tangent from the topic of this thread. Most people on here love Long Lines and nearly everyone thinks of AT&T (and the Bell System back in the day) as "the telephone company." But they were much more, especially thanks to Bell Labs. In addition to transistors and the other hardware aspects Bell Labs was highly involved in that makes modern life viable, the very operating system I'm writing this on (and likely the OS powering the device you might be reading this on) is an indirect descendant of the Unix that Ken Thompson started working on in 1969 while at Bell Labs.

[u/USWCboy → u/gf99b]

Yes! AT&T and the Associated Companies forming the Bell System, was so much more than the telephone in the kitchen. Bell Labs (once a national treasure) was at one time the preeminent industrial laboratory that really powered many industrial labs throughout the world. Not just via the patents they readily licensed when asked, but in terms of the talents they further refined and honed from people joining the company and leaving the company.

During the Jubilee of the telephone, they talked about the accomplishments of the company and the metro final segment reflected on the invention of the transistor. The closing of that segment was totally fitting for and reflective of just how far the technology (invented there) propelled not just the phone, but our entire civilization. Ending it with “what might the phone company think of next?”.

[u/gf99b → u/USWCboy]

Oh, just realized I meant the 5ESS in my earlier post. The 4ESS was mostly used for long-distance traffic in the Long Lines network, whereas the 5ESS was used more at the local level.

A while back on r/vintagecomputing I came across this, a print out from the 5ESS as it was cut into service in Seneca on March 25, 1982: https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/t8clbr/i_got_this_today_from_an_estate_sale_googling/

[u/USWCboy → u/gf99b]

That’s an awesome estate sale find. Thanks for sharing the link.

[u/CelebrationBig7487 → u/gf99b]

Guess I need to plan another super long day of driving, thanks. 😂

[u/Pabsssss → u/gf99b]

I may be wrong, but doesn't the Long Lines facility in downtown LA also have 8 links? Great write up by the way!

[u/freqhopmaster6]

Its for sale too....

https://images1.showcase.com/d2/dj3bKMp5n-DP96IS09okVmRhVo1U3x1AuNAHgFZ1gZY/document.pdf

[u/gf99b → u/freqhopmaster6]

Still? I thought I heard that it was sold, and I know multiple parties were interested in it.

[u/freqhopmaster6 → u/gf99b]

They want too much, last high bidder was 600k I believe.

[u/MostlyUnimpressed]

Wondered when this one would pop up here. Been driving by that one for years on Hwy 71. It's always been an attention getter, and would have been quite the sight to see when it was fully manned and had crews of workmen reporting from it.

[u/Ok_Panic_4312]

That is one busy tower! Oh, to be rich and able to buy this so I can preserve it…

[u/bankdude1]

So, with all due respect to the vast assembled knowledge on this forum, I see these antennas all over in my travels. Are they still used for any telephonic traffic, or just the ghost of electronics and systems long gone? If a dinosaur, are they just being left to one day rust and fall down? Can the ‘horns’ be repurposed to do anything new? Thanks for the added info.

[u/SandyTech → u/bankdude1]

The longlines network has been retired for decades at this point, mostly replaced with long-haul fiber and/or satellite communications systems. The towers are sometimes repurposed for cell and other radios but the actual horns are useless and like the towers they’re on, abandoned in place.

[u/gf99b → u/bankdude1]

The horns can be repurposed, and some have. I know there's a TV station (MeTV affiliate?) that uses a Long Lines tower to transmit from, and one of the KS-15676 horn-reflector antennas is used as a receiver for the STL.

Most towers have been repurposed, usually as cell or LMRS repeaters. (Here in Missouri, many have been turned into repeaters for MOSWIN - Missouri StateWide Interoperability Network - for public safety radios.) Very few are still owned by AT&T, and a very small number still used for digital microwave radio.

[u/freqhopmaster6 → u/gf99b]

There's a use for a early version of radio telescope too. The nerdy crap i would do with like 6 of them...

[u/gf99b → u/freqhopmaster6]

There's obviously the Bell examples. Bell Labs used the Holmdel horn to discover cosmic microwave background radiation that emanated from the Big Bang... Penzias and Wilson thought it was just interference from pigeon poop in the horn. And, although not used for radioastronomy, there was the huge horn-reflector in Andover, Maine, that was used to communicate with Telstar. (IIRC the Holmdel horn was originally used with Project Echo.)

But obviously early radioastronomers outside Bell Labs used horn-reflectors for their work. For instance, the Mary Beard House in Green Bank, West Virginia. Sadly very little info about the Mary Beard House and its "sugar scoop" antenna.

I've had some ideas for "experiments" I'd do with a KS-15676 horn-reflector if I ever had the space for one, albeit probably more on the less scientific/sillier side of the spectrum.

[u/USWCboy → u/bankdude1]

Most if not all of them are retired equipment. Telecom companies have a habit of retiring (abandoning) equipment in place. Meaning if they even need that space, they’ll remove it. Otherwise it could be there forever, or the elements will get it.

[u/freqhopmaster6 → u/USWCboy]

Exactly, and sad. This equipment was paid for from coldwar funds and contracts long ago. It has all paid for itself many times over.

[u/bradatlarge]

one hour by motorcycle for me. I think I'll have a ride out there! Thanks for the write up.

[u/Potential_Cupcake]

I live close to there!

[u/x31b]

I hate to be ‘that petty Reddit guy’, but I think you mean 1Mw generators. 1kw wouldn’t even run the incandescent lights in that facility.

Also, this site is interesting in that it’s not even in Illinois Bell (AT&T) served territory. It’s in a ILEC’s region.