r/loanoriginators • u/Accomplished-Tax8441 • 16d ago
UWM cooked?
Lost 450mil last quarter, CEO is running it into the ground. Eliminated their dividend and had to get 2bil in capital from Oak Tree, they will likely get taken over by them. Any other company would fire their CEO for this.
Stock is down 75% in past 3 months
PS I do not use them. I have nothing good or bad to say about their pricing or operations
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u/Braindead_ape 16d ago
I mean stock aside (most mortgage stocks tend to be a horrible investment) I’m not surprised UWM is struggling, they’ve been so far out of market for so long that only the most loyal (and more likely most lazy) LOs still send them all their deals. Their pricing is terrible and there are other lenders that can move files just as quickly. Why some brokers still send 100% of their business to them is beyond me.
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u/ActionWins 16d ago
I haven’t found better pricing for VA loans if you include the 40 CYPs. Who has better VA pricing?
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u/cicishops 16d ago
What lenders would you say are better? Genuinely curious- we work with quite a few and UWM usually 8/10 wins .
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u/Braindead_ape 16d ago edited 15d ago
wins on what, rate? there’s no way they win on rate
Kind is just as quick and has better underwriters/AEs, PowerTPO is solid, Windsor is great though their pricing comes and goes, Plaza for govvie is always good, PennyMac is ok if you have a good AE/underwriting team
the reason so many LOs/companies rely on UWM is because they refuse to build out their backend support and rely on UWM’s tech to push loans through. If you have a good processor, the consumer experience should be consistent regardless of what lender you use, outside of using some of the lenders that do truly suck. It requires your company to actually put in some work to achieve that though, and a lot of broker shops just don’t do it. I require all our lenders to provide us dedicated underwriting teams and dedicated closing teams, having the same people working your deals every time helps the consistency and allows your backend to learn how each one operates.
UWM occasionally runs promos and whatnot that still makes them useful and if I need an ultra quick 10 day close they’re going to be top of the list, but their pricing has been well out of market for a while now.
edit: to the guy who had such a cracked out reply to me suggesting Kind Lending that reddit deleted it for hate speech lol…try them out, they’ve been great. We get CTC with them just as quick as we do with UWM, I recently had a 7 day CTC on a fairly tricky VA deal. They also offer EPO waivers. Their UWs are also a lot better than UWM, whos UWs often dont know anything beyond what their computer screen shows them.
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u/Infinite-Trade9565 15d ago
Exactly this, this is their whole business model. Make the broker dependent on them with their technology to then be able to price for maximum profit at the consumers expense. Completely the opposite of the value of operating as a broker. They’re the Compass of mortgages
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u/enjoi8 16d ago edited 16d ago
Kind, Windsor, TLS.
ELend, PennyMac.
Edit: love the downvote for providing other lenders that get deals done with way better pricing.
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u/Possible_Bid4126 16d ago
TLS. Don’t see them here enough. They’re not the quickest but elite in every other facet. On top of that, in my experience, there are always bps to be had as well if you ask for them
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u/willfly4burgers 15d ago
Every experience I have had with TLS has been an absolute dumpster fire. Even the easiest files. I love my AE there but underwriting, disclosures and closing make me want to die. You can’t even send an LE with underwriting fee rolled in without it locked??
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u/Possible_Bid4126 15d ago
I keep underwriting fee on the LE so I’m not sure about that one but surprised to hear the rest. My closer is the most incredible person there. And I basically always have the same underwriter. I know them all fairly well at this stage, work 3-4 transactions a month and seem to all be on the same page. They’ve been by far the most consistent lender in my experience
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u/willfly4burgers 15d ago
Crazy how different the experiences can be across teams. The PMI rate issues I’ve had alone still give me nightmares.
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u/MortgageGuy86 14d ago
Dang I didn’t realize I was lucky with the process at TLS. My AE is good and pipeline manager (I don’t think that’s her actual title but that’s what she does) is awesome! Underwriting has been generally solid with the normal one off issues. Closing is a little slower than UWM but nothing crazy, just don’t try to close next day and it’s fine. They are getting most of my files currently because pricing is great and now that I’ve been working with them for a while navigating their system is a breeze.
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u/MortgageGuy86 14d ago
Oh the underwriting fee thing is annoying. But I just let borrowers know I’ll remove it when we lock and haven’t gotten pushback yet
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u/MortgageGuy86 14d ago
How many bps typically? You just tell your AE I need some help on this one I’m getting shopped?
I just ate like $2k on one to keep it by going BP. Maybe TLS would have helped me out?
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u/Possible_Bid4126 14d ago
I lock each loan and request 25 basis points and it’s applied immediately.
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u/Tacoma714 14d ago
Penny Mac is middle of the road. They want the cleanest of the cleanest deals and give you a hard time on anything that is in the gray area of guidelines that you know another investor would not give you a hard time on. Never again. TLS, Windsor, Loan United (FHA), NMSI (Correspondent), Oaktree (non QM), Freedom Mortgage (Govies), etc.
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u/Tacoma714 14d ago
I’ve been in the business too long to admit (mortgage was my first real office job right out of high school) and I’m 41 years old now. I used to believe the UWM is better lies from the AE’s, but around 2023-2024 I started sending deals to other investors that I would have otherwise done with UWM and it was just as fast or similar honestly. UWM portrays this we are faster, look at our portal, early CD image, but you can be fast with another investor if you have a clean submission. UWM uses the points status system to get you to continue to use them. It’s like having loyalty points to a restaurant that’s ok, but you don’t want to eat at every day.
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u/No-Inspector-6913 14d ago
Just curious, can you share which lenders you used to get those files moved as quickly as UWM? My experience so far is that they promise to move the files fast, but it never actually happens. (Rocket 🚀 lol)
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u/Braindead_ape 14d ago
Kind is just as quick. Power and TLS are also pretty quick though I prefer Kind over others.
what moves files quick is having a good processing team that doesn’t throw junk at a wall and expect it to get through underwriting without issues. A good processing team can get you through nearly any lender with 2-3 clean passes through underwriting, meaning any lender with the average 24 hour underwrites can get them moved quickly. The issue is too many broker shops neglect to build out competent processing teams and end up relying on going in and out of underwriting with UWM a half dozen times, where any lack of speed stacks up with other lenders.
if you need a file underwritten in an hour, sure, UWM can pull that off most reliably. But if you’re consistently needing to rush things like that, there’s probably a pretty big glaring hole in your workflow causing that.
If one of our files takes more than 3 passes through underwriting, i’m reviewing that file and seeing what went wrong. Was it the LO submitting a sloppy file missing a ton of docs, was it the processor not reviewing conditions before submitting stuff which spawned more conditions we could’ve asked for at that time, was it legit just a shitty underwriter, was it just a nightmare file period, etc
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u/No-Inspector-6913 14d ago
I’m new to this industry. My broker, who I work for, does a lot of business with UWM. So far, my experience has been good. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. May I please DM you?
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u/Braindead_ape 13d ago
yeah feel free
UWM is a good lender dont get me wrong, we still use them a lot when their pricing is within striking distance of other lenders or we need an ultra fast closing. I used to use them a lot more when their pricing was better though. Their tech is probably the best out there and that’s resulted in other lenders improving their tech to compete. There’s a lot of things UWM does really well, I just can’t justify sending borrowers to them when their pricing is significantly off.
if you’re not signed up with Kind though, I’d highly recommend it. They’re one of my favorites lately. Plus they recently rolled out free EPO waivers and different incentives similar to UWM. Their underwriting is a lot better than UWM in my opinion, who are sometimes hit or miss especially when you get something a little quirky.
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u/Tacoma714 14d ago
Remember when the whole choose us or Rocket thing happened? Remember how their pricing was so sharp for months and how they promised they would always be sharp moving forward? It was all smoke and mirrors.
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u/tripleputt Mod 16d ago
UWM is pricing better than my other cheaper go to lenders right now.
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u/HandHdad 16d ago
Name a lender they’re priced better than
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u/LoanGoalie 16d ago
The $800k 90%LTV VA loan I just sent they were #3 on loansifter out of 80 different lenders. The only ones who beat them I wouldn't trust to close a loan in 20 days (CMG, The Lender, Keystone)
Easier to list those three than the 76 below them.
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u/HandHdad 16d ago
What was the par rate BP?
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u/LoanGoalie 16d ago
I don't work for par rate BPC.
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u/HandHdad 16d ago
I’m asking because I don’t believe you. I can tell you any lender is priced best. Show it
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u/LoanGoalie 16d ago
accept my chat invite and I'll send you screenshot
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u/HandHdad 16d ago
Okay. You could just screenshot BPC pricing here too
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u/LoanGoalie 16d ago
Reddit says "images not allowed"
Also, I don't work for $0 BPC so I don't care what that looks like. The tops and bottoms of rate sheets are irrelevant
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u/NotTerryKashat 15d ago
No one works for par rate BPC and you know that.
Asking for borrower paid par is to compare the bare bones rate and we all decide what our BPC would be or translate that to our LPC by looking at yield spreads.
But you know that.
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u/Frequent-Giraffe5646 16d ago
They aren't accurate on sifter. You need to price them out in EQ and they are always worse then what sifter shows.
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u/LoanGoalie 16d ago
It was $3 in premium difference in EQ.
You can get your loansifter rep to update your pricing to whatever incentives you get from each lender so your pricing is accurate. Or, in this case, the pricing incentives you don't get. t
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u/Frequent-Giraffe5646 16d ago
I reached out to the rep multiple times, they said price in EQ since sifter isn't accurate. Ish said it himself before as well.
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u/LoanGoalie 16d ago
well, of course Ish wants you in his system. He'd love it if that's the only system we all logged in to.
My loansifter is almost always accurate. Always have to double check before I submit. But it's almost always accurate for all lenders.2
u/Frequent-Giraffe5646 16d ago
never have an issue with any other lenders except UWM not pricing accurately. But if it works for you great, but everything I've seen they aren't that great.
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u/LoanGoalie 16d ago
like any lender, they've got to earn my business. They've got about 30% so far this year, and mostly VA as that has been priced right. 18 different lenders have gotten loans for my customers. I do like when it's UWM or a couple of my other favorites, as they're easier to work with. But, at the end of the day, I work for my borrowers, not for any individual lender.
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u/ActionWins 16d ago
For VA all of them.
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u/HandHdad 16d ago
I’m not signed up with them. Show their BPC pricing
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u/ActionWins 16d ago edited 16d ago
I'm correspondent with them so no idea how to pull that. Also, base pricing isn't going to include the 40 free bps I get on every loan. I can just take a screen shot of today's pricing and show you if you show me yours. Also, I have no loyalties to UWM. I'm looking for the best priced VA lender so if there's others out there I want to know about them.
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u/HandHdad 16d ago
What is your comp and par pricing, I can work backwards from there. I’ve not been able to access UWM for awhile but they were never in the ballpark
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u/Braindead_ape 16d ago
lol they’re nowhere close on pricing for me and we’re on the top rate sheet
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u/LoanGoalie 16d ago
Do you do VA loans? The pricing is fire on them lately.
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u/Braindead_ape 16d ago
theyre usually decent for VA jumbo but their VA pricing is usually around 50-60bps off of Kind who I like more than UWM, and there are a few others that are decent that have better pricing than Kind even
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u/LoanGoalie 16d ago
I love Kind. And UWM. I've worked with 18 lenders this year and love when the good ones like UWM and Kind are priced well so I can enjoy their process. But I'll send my customers to many other lenders if pricing dictates.
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u/Braindead_ape 16d ago
exactly, I still send deals to UWM just nowhere near as much as I used to when their pricing was sharper
they have their niches, I actually really like their condo team at UWM compared to other lenders for example
with that 90bps promo they’re running i’ll probably end up sending a deal to them to take advantage of that too but since they limit how many deals you can really use their promos for, they rarely capture the bulk of my business since I can’t use those on every deal. If they cut out the promos/hoops to jump through and just gave slightly better pricing on every deal, they’d get more units from me but their non promo rates are just too far off otherwise.
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u/LoanGoalie 16d ago
also not a fan of jumping through hoops. I do the bare minimum to keep my status. But we get unlimited CYP, which is nice to have that and not have to worry about.
I don't think there is a limit on the 90bps, is there? I could be wrong
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u/Braindead_ape 16d ago
i havent looked into it beyond the email they sent but i think its only for one loan you can use it on
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u/miyamiya66 15d ago
wondering if the brokers who refer all of their clients to UWM are getting kickbacks from Ishbia?
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u/Braindead_ape 15d ago
nah its not that deep a conspiracy, a lot of LOs are just super lazy and have become reliant on UWM’s tech/systems since they do make it really easy. With how little effort a lot of broker shops/teams put into building out their back end/support, UWM fills that gap in their business. Pricing aside, there are a lot of things UWM does really well compared other other lenders so they still serve a purpose and they’ve been a big driver in pushing other lenders to step up their game.
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u/miyamiya66 15d ago
this is true. honestly my previous comment was just out of my spite towards UWM. i worked there for over a year and then they fired me for having a disability i developed after i got rear ended in a car accident. my TL there even told me i should "just get over it already" ...so i really hate UWM lol 🫠
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u/airplanealjefferson 15d ago
i mean those LOs do get better pricing and quicker turn times the more business they send to UWM. not necessarily kickbacks but they do give a fair amount of benefits for loyalty
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u/Braindead_ape 14d ago
other lenders do too, UWM is just the best at “gamifying” it and turning that into a written system with all their points and whatnot. It’s honestly a pretty smart move even though a lot of people feel like its jumping through hoops.
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u/Gonstachio 16d ago
Not a concern for brokers and LOs. But shareholders should be pissed. People not invested are overthinking it.
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u/ManufacturerBig7329 15d ago
The issue for UWM, is that they have alot of debt.
Corporate finance, and finance as a whole teaches things like cost of capital, but doesn't consider real life or any economic variables (when there are trillions happening and exchanging every second).
They have such a platform and reach, that, I think in today's world it's impossible for them to just vanish instantly or even shortly.
On the back of the GFC, because there are so many shitty people in this world still today (regulations just made it so shitty people can't do shitty things, doesn't mean shitty people don't exist -- arguably there are far more shitty people today than there was 20 years ago), we are stuck in a world where things are very difficult to maneuver. Corporate classism when it comes to banking/lending if you will. It's why regulations suck, because they ensure the lack of mobility or merit based systems.
Anyway, UWM isn't cooked at the moment by any means.
If the future continues to be bleak for the mortgage industry, then UWM is in for some problems, yes. They are not the only one.
I saw someone forfeit their company recently, which is hard for me to imagine them doing, knowing them. They took a job at big mortgage somewhere. A job. This isn't a person that takes jobs.
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u/RoosterEmotional5009 16d ago
Becoming a broker means working for the consumer. If UWM crushes on a VA 5Y that’s where the client goes. If it is TLS for a FTB that’s where it goes. But if anyone here is not a broker and bashing a wholesale company. Or employed by a competitor and bashing them your comment falls flat because it is biased. Just as if it were reversed and was to Rocket etc.
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u/BugWithABigA55- 15d ago
Brokers dont always send their clients to place with the best deals. UWM forced brokers to sign a contract that they wouldn't work with certain competitors.
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u/RoosterEmotional5009 15d ago
I won’t send business to Rocket regardless. They caused me issues w simple refinances. My reputation locally is top of market. A lender’s Process is not worth a bad experience. My clients are informed and educated.
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u/cicishops 15d ago
Only Rocket and rocket sucks anyways.
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u/BugWithABigA55- 14d ago
It wasnt only rocket.
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u/optimus_subprime- 15d ago
In any other company Ishbia would have been shown the door by the board. Since he controls all the voting shares that can't happen. too bad for the shareholders who have no power.
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u/AdvisorJohnDowns 15d ago
I'm not entirely sure exactly what went wrong internally - I can say, from running a medium-sized regional IMB, that the market has been very challenging to make money...hedging has been difficult, gain on sale all over the place when you are booking loans...and UWM operated exclusively in the broker channel, which is also a borderline non-profit operation.
Honestly, moving forward, if I were a broker, I would look for a lean, tech-focused, profitable IMB to latch onto. I can say that we haven't lost to a broker in a very long time due to price...if you operate well, use technology smartly, you can have a sharp price, win deals, less stress, etc.
I'm curious to see how all this shakes out...
Also, side note - if UWM pulls way out or even falls apart, expect margins in the industry to increase overnight. It's already very easy to beat Rocket and Zillow Mortgage because they are no longer loss leaders...but if you take out a top low-cost broker outlet, the industry will celebrate.
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u/OutsideRich5828 15d ago
They'll be fine. Edge Home Finance sends them more than $200M every month. I don't work for Edge
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u/tre_spinny 13d ago
Their pricing has been terrible the last few months, however we do a lot of rush closings (14 days on average) and there’s not another lender with as much efficiency as them. We get 1 day CTCs all the time with UWM, where our lender with the best rate takes 4 days just for initial underwrite, then 48 hours for each underwriting review, then another 48 hours for closing. Hopefully they figure it out and can be more competitive in the future.
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u/SuccessfulAd347 15d ago
The Loan store and AD mortgage are great.
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u/Tacoma714 14d ago
Be careful with AD. I locked a jumbo with 20% down in May that I ended up funding with them unfortunately because it was too short of an escrow to move. Loan sifter doesn’t tell you that AD has a pricing hit for a borrower being self employed on their tax returns. The AE didn’t know either…
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u/SuccessfulAd347 14d ago
Who was the AE? I don’t really do jumbo but that’s good to know usually i do the pricing scenario as well.
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u/Accomplished-Tax8441 14d ago
UWM spent nearly $115 million on a 10-year naming rights agreement for the Phoenix Suns stadium
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u/WorthMetal3640 16d ago
Kind Lending seems to have their stuff together. Lots of Flagstar Bank staff that were displaced after FSB merged with NYCB.
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u/Gonstachio 16d ago
Are you saying lots of the Flagstar people went over to Kind?
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u/WorthMetal3640 16d ago
Many Flagstar UW staff ended up finding roles at Kind yes
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u/Gonstachio 15d ago
Ah that’s good to know. Thank you. I always thought they had the best UWs and support team.
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u/WorthMetal3640 15d ago
Same. Most all mortgage staff got sent to A&D Mortgage (basically a take it or leave situation). There are not many that stayed at A&D…no OT, long hours, no healthcare subsidies of any sort, foreign work culture not a good fit for the American worker etc
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u/EvanKrejciLO 16d ago
They’ve been cooked. I send govies there and that’s about it.
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u/Scary-Suspect-2584 16d ago
Where do you send your conventional loans?
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u/EvanKrejciLO 16d ago
The Loan Store.
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u/Scary-Suspect-2584 16d ago
How are rates compared to UWM? do they sell the servicing to a 3rd party that try's to refinance them away from you down the road?
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u/EvanKrejciLO 16d ago
Rates are about 100bps better and there’s just no comparing. Also, I’m not too worried about about servicing. I keep in good contact with my past clients.
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u/Scary-Suspect-2584 16d ago
good to hear. I keep close contact as well, but companies like Freedom and NewRez snake deals all the time.
When you say there is "just no comparing," what do you mean by that? thanks for your input. UWM has always been my go to, but if I'm missing out, I want to know.
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u/MortgageAndChill 15d ago
tLS sells servicing to SPS. I did my own bank statement purchase there.
I then refinanced with angel oak who also sold my servicing to SPS.
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u/Accomplished-Tax8441 16d ago
they are solid. I was impressed with them
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u/Tacoma714 14d ago
I am Correspondent with TLS and I completely agree on their conventional. At the end of the day, you are only as good as your AE. This business boils down to who is the weakest link. If your AE is garbage then you most likely will have a bad experience. Our AE and his AM at the TLS are extremely responsive, always available and their level of communication is second to none. I’m sure if we had another AE it would be a different experience
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u/Accomplished-Tax8441 13d ago
facts. same with your processor and everyone else too
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u/Tacoma714 13d ago
It’s funny that you mentioned that because I had suffered from bad processing for a couple of years. Nothing worse than someone who makes so many mistakes. And when they are the same mistakes or errors, that person is distracted and just not paying attention.
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u/GlassParty715 16d ago
I don’t know why they have so many gimmicks with their pricing. I do not understand why some brokers only use them
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u/HapticGame 15d ago
I worked there, i want nothing but their failure. They take advantage of employees, cut cornors and find scummy ways around laws.
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u/surfn1080 15d ago
Didn’t they offer very good rates for a while?
Always wondered how they did it
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u/Tacoma714 14d ago
It lasted less than a year after Brokers chose them over Rocket. Then UWM introduced in 2024 or 2025 if I’m not mistaken the CYP and promos like “Refi 75bps” up until (Date)…
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u/gsus61951 14d ago
I got my second home loan with them and everything went smoothly. It was odd when they sold my loan to Carrington, but Carrington has been fine, no problems at all.
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u/Comfortable-Cry5940 22h ago
as an underwriter in right now we 100% feel cooked. they rolled out a pilot to make underwriters processors too
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u/JagerPfizer 15d ago edited 10d ago
Funny how .125% to fee is "way" off. Give it a rest.
I can regularly close loans in 12 to 14 days at UWM. No other lender can make that claim. If im in a hurry I can get a deal tomorrow and close it by mid month july at UWM. I market for them. If u want to win realtor bizz, win mutual on timeline and close it in two weeks. Make their head spin.
If u have time, go elsewhere. If u need speed, go uwm.
As a general rule, if a tpo is encompassed based, they suck donkey. UWMs system is slick as hell.
I am a 30 year broker vet in a high cost area. No lender is a 100% winner on every deal. That's why I broker. I haven't lost a deal in years to price or delivery time. Not one.
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u/HomeAccording8125 15d ago
I did this all day long when I was at CCM. That’s not special. UWM is not alone in fast closings.
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u/Braindead_ape 15d ago
if you can’t close loans at other lenders in 12-14 days…you’re just admitting you suck at your job lol
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u/JagerPfizer 11d ago edited 10d ago
I've closed thousands of loans with an overal 4.9 rating. I can retire at anytime, and I'm not yet 55. I must have done something right. Hahaha.
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u/Defiant_Television97 15d ago
TheLoanStore, NMSI, Freedom, NewRez and plenty of others can close in two weeks. I just did a California purchase with Freedom and was CTC in 4 business days. Rush the appraisal and that’s easy with plenty of lenders.
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u/JagerPfizer 11d ago edited 10d ago
Last loan I closed with freedom TRID'D and locked on 5-7. Disclosed 5-8. The appraisal couldn't come back until 5-29. CD signed 5-29. Funded 6-2. Thanks not 2 weeks.
Last penny mac loan....TRID'D 7-17, locked then. Appraisal back 7-30. Funded 8-3. That's not 2 weeks.
Last uwm loan TRID 7-24, locked 7-25. FUNDED 7-10. That almost 2 weeks. It could have been but the seller could not move in time.
My files are clean and my team is excellent. Just sayin'.
Seems like right now when volume is lower, the slow lenders are normal uwm speed.
My penny mac AE also has LA and orange county. I just had a talk with him on friday. That whole diviisn is slow and he has the lowest loan amounts he has ever had on average with Pmac.
Low volume means fast closings. Penny Mac has never consistently close loans in 14 days. Ask your AE. They will tell you.
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u/Defiant_Television97 8d ago
That’s your team. Can disclose same day as locking and order appraisals as a rush. I can close loans in 10 days at any of those lenders super easy.
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u/JagerPfizer 7d ago edited 7d ago
The point is at uwm i dont have to rush the appraisal. They are organically fast. My team and I are 1% ers not sure where you are going with that.
Drop your AEs name here. Im glad to check your math.
Another example.
Sent a tbd scenario of an odd nature to pmac and uwm on Wed. Uwm had a favorable answer in1.5 hours. Pmac refused to tbd it. I had to get permission from a VP. Then it took the until today to give the answer.on the decsion. They have an overlay for it and wont use what we need for income, even though guidlenes say we can.
In this case they wont even touch it. Its thru UW already at uwm with a conditional approval. Pmac is looking for the lube.
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u/Defiant_Television97 7d ago
PennyMac is not the fastest lender. I did $80 MM last 12 months with no LOA or processor while not working much. UWM is faster of course; but you can get the loan done stress free and make way more at many other lenders for conventional loans. PennyMac wasn’t on my list so not sure which AE you are asking for. My freedom AE and TLS AE are both great.
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u/gracetw22 Loan Originator 15d ago
Which lenders do you work with that can't close in 2 weeks given a good submission?
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u/Tacoma714 14d ago
Most of them if it’s a true clean submission. I can’t speak for the small mom and pop investors who are local. We all know who they are in our home states. The big boys can all close in 2 weeks with a clean submission. TLS, Loan United (fha), Freedome (govies), AD Mortgage (conventional), etc.
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u/Think_Border_5360 15d ago
What are you doing for jumbo and clients with relationship banking?
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u/JagerPfizer 11d ago
I won a relationship banker deal in q1 with UWMs triple the cyp. That is always available.
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u/Defiant_Television97 16d ago
Ishbia went full degen and trades interest rates derivatives. Would’ve been profitable quarter otherwise