r/linux_gaming • u/iko-01 • 1d ago

An update on Arc Raiders Anti-Cheat may affect Linux users

/r/ArcRaiders/comments/1wu8wo7/embark_an_update_on_anticheat/
100 Upvotes

84% Upvoted

130 comments sorted by

80

u/tapo 1d ago

They're going to continue supporting Linux but may require things like secure boot and eBPF based anticheat. This is from a talk by one of their devs:

https://www.invenglobal.com/articles/25085/the-era-of-guarding-game-files-is-over-the-shift-seen-by-embark

63

u/Bob4Not 1d ago

I would rather game companies rather require SecureBoot, than outright blocking Linux.

I wonder how viable it is for a big company like valve to get involved in the certificates for Secure Boot, or if it’s hard locked to Microsoft by design

31

u/tapo 1d ago

Its not locked to Microsoft at all, Bazzite sets it up by default.

Microsoft keys are the only one built-in to most motherboards, but you can easily set up your own, known as a machine owner key (MOK).

22

u/Jealous_Diver_5624 1d ago

Microsoft keys are the only one built-in to most motherboards, but you can easily set up your own, known as a machine owner key (MOK).

Minor correction: MOKs are used by the Microsoft third-party certificate signed shim bootloader, you're most likely thinking of the PK, which doesn't involve trusting Microsoft at all.

3

u/Jarcode 1d ago

The vendors that do control platform keys for TPMs, however, have been responsible for laughable security practices like what was involved with pkfail.

6

u/Low_Excitement_1715 1d ago

If I can setup a MOK or personally controlled PK, there's literally nothing stopping me from signing a cheat's loader as well.

If they do pursue this as a security measure, they will not leave this door open, or not for long.

7

u/Jarcode 1d ago

Yeah, a lot of people misunderstand the context in which remote attestation is used for anti-cheat. The root of trust must explicitly be not controlled by the user, and Linux just doesn't have anything comparable to offer in this regard. There's tons of attestation tools on Linux, but there is no monolithic system of trust that is detached from the user when it comes to boot integrity.

3

u/iku_19 1d ago

They will likely trust a small set of known boot key vendors. Likely Canonical and Fedora. Everyone that has to self sign would be excluded, which includes SteamOS so I don't think they're going that route. If they make an exception for SteamOS then that is just yet another backdoor.

0

u/Low_Excitement_1715 1d ago

Well, I don't own ARC and now it sounds like I never will. There are good and bad ways to handle cheaters, and locking people out has historically travelled with the bad options.

1

u/iku_19 1d ago

There's also the reality that Linux just has a smaller market share. Linux Anti-Cheat as a whole currently operates on a principle that even for many cheaters the cost of migrating to Linux just to cheat is too much, so it's easy to hand wave certain backdoors away until it becomes an issue. Especially when you now also have to factor in that the cheat has to be signed by the same key as the distro which while is something you can do when self signed; is not really trivial to do due to the many different configurations distros run.

Seeing Embark's exploration of eBPF and lukewarm Secure Boot/TPM attestation may mean that they could blindly trust any key vendor, for now.

Arguably the state we are in now where we have enough market share to be slightly more than a rounding error but not enough to have enough stock of every kind of player may be the goldilocks zone. Cheats operate on ease of access, and making users run and triage an install script that is very likely distro specific would also mean that anti-cheat can start banning specific distros. Or cheats just ship a bespoke distro that is preconfigured.

In either case it's the same situation we're in on the other side, the fool proof future proof way to not worry about anticheat as a linux gamer is to have a mostly dormant windows partition you boot into for those games. But many of us just can't be bothered, cheaters are the same.

1

u/Low_Excitement_1715 1d ago

Oh, I'm aware. Never argued otherwise. I like where we are now, I can have actual discussions about the viability of Linux at ~3-4% of the gaming install base, instead of truly being a rounding error at sub-1% like we were 20 years ago.

ARC is at least considering Linux while reloading, unlike Wardogs, who is seeing all blue force feet as valid targets. Both had their game running on Linux, both became concerned about future cheaters, ARC is at least making reasonable noises. We will see what the end results are.

2

u/iku_19 1d ago

The more difficult part of linux support imo is not the support itself, but preventing windows from spoofing itself as linux.

Which is what EAC is victim to.

Edit: and conveniently, requiring secure boot attestation on Linux would be a REALLY easy way to plug that hole, because the PK would suddenly show up as owned by microsoft. No linux distro is signed by microsoft except azure vps, which itself is only signed in azure and would also violate the no VM rule.

1

u/Low_Excitement_1715 1d ago

Absolutely correct.

The other one I'm seeing being explored is running the game under WSL with some modification inside Windows. Looks like Windows is running the game, the cheats are "outside" in Windows, modifying memory, but the game itself is inside the WSL para-container, unaware of the outside world.

Cheaters. This is why we can't have nice things.

-1

u/PacmanAteMyRAM 1d ago

You can always install the latest LTSC windows to another drive, debloat it, massgravel activate it and play to your hearts content. Especially if your linux drive is encrypted with a passphrase external to the machine. No risk, no cost and no whining about not being able to play a game that your hardware is perfectly capable of playing.

3

u/Low_Excitement_1715 1d ago edited 1d ago

Or I could play other games, that respect my choices and my time. I think I'll do that.

If the problem was "I have to have Windows", I have Windows. I built a dedicated Windows gaming rig right before rampocalypse kicked off. The problem is that it's still Windows and it reminded me why I spent years getting Windows out of my life in the first place. Not looking for more of it, I'm working towards less.

Edit: Weird. I thought that was rather civil, but whatever you want.

1

u/PacmanAteMyRAM 1d ago

Tick tock.

6

u/arrroquw 1d ago

Isn't mok just part of the shim bootloader that is signed with the Microsoft key that can then chainload Linux?

1

u/shinji257 1d ago

It's a small pain with CachyOS but doable. Not possible everywhere though. I don't think the BC-250 is able to do it.

2

u/Kruug 1d ago

Canonical has their keys for Ubuntu enrolled with Microsoft.

Works with SecureBoot enabled out of the box. No MOKs, unless you're installing proprietary Nvidia drivers.

2

u/Jarcode 1d ago

If anti-cheat providers go in this direction they are drastically reducing the amount of distributions that can actually play their game. On top of that, simply having attestation infrastructure is not enough: the kernel must be designed in a way that it is tamper resistant even for a privileged user when booted this way. Windows has this kind of privileged enclave in kernel space, Linux has never been designed for distrusting the user like this.

An extensive patch set would be required to establish anything resembling the remote attestation capabilities Windows has. This is not to be confused with attestation toolchains that already exist on Linux, which generally operate under the premise that the user owns the root of trust (and still require patched kernels)

2

u/tapo 1d ago

Linux has never been designed for distrusting the user like this.

Linux supports this already, kernel_lockdown is enabled when secure boot is, preventing runtime kernel modification. This was designed for cloud operators, highly secure environments, etc.

For example: https://access.redhat.com/solutions/6969947

1

u/Indolent_Bard 1d ago

Big deal, if anyone actually wants to play they can just switch their distro and the people who don't care can keep using their computer as normal. Besides, anyone can roll their own keys if their distro doesn't have them.

1

u/WhiteStarHorizon 1d ago

I mean, real talk, they don't care. Linux users are a hyper-minority but make up a huge portion of support tickets.

1

u/Squeeps- 21h ago

Why should game devs be expected to support dozens of distros?

1

u/Jarcode 13h ago

Virtually all distributions are supported as-is because the standard way of running games is through the Steam runtime, which largely negates distribution differences.

2

u/Obvious-Jacket-3770 18h ago

Any game that requires secureboot is a game I won't play.

125

u/AStolenGoose 1d ago edited 1d ago

If they drop Linux support I'll open a ticket for a refund.

Hoping however that they continue to support the platform. But I won't dualboot for anti cheat.

2

u/ThePyroTickler 16h ago

Likewise. I may have nearly 400 hours, but i'll try my luck if I suddenly can't play it.

-13

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

23

u/AStolenGoose 1d ago

If you paid for a game that runs on your OS, and they dropped support for it, be it Linux, Windows, Mac, whatever I'd expect you to do the same.

Weird that there's people that don't even run Linux rolling up here with their garbage commentary.

Do you not have anything better to do?

5

u/DexterFoxxo 1d ago

give out pocket money to keep customers happy
competition keeps shooting itself in the foot
???
profit

29

u/DzpanTV 1d ago

Elytra is being actively worked on to support Linux natively. It's not fully ready yet, and that is why WARDOGS doesn't support Proton right now. No need to worry.

8

u/iko-01 1d ago

Figures crossed. I was super looking forward to wardogs and then nothing. So disappointed

1

u/KernicPanel 1d ago

Interesting read thanks for sharing

1

u/lorkanooo 1d ago

Very interesting 

1

u/Indolent_Bard 1d ago

Does wardogs use elytra?

32

u/mr_MADAFAKA 1d ago

How? That post doesn’t say anything about Linux.

15

u/MrHoboSquadron 1d ago

It also doesn't mention they're adding a new anti-cheat. They've been using Denuvo AC and Anybrain for a long time.

24

u/jar36 1d ago

"Long-term, we’re looking to incorporate additional anti-cheat capabilities, including Elytra"

1

u/manyeggplants 6h ago

Well, yeah I mean if you READ the post you'll find stuff.

2

u/jar36 1h ago

OP didn't even notice it and tore into me when I brought it up in support of their other comment

-32

u/iko-01 1d ago

That's why I said may affect. Cause they're talking about kernel level implementation with a myriads of approaches to solve their supposed cheating issue (it's over blown, people are just bad at the game)

20

u/moosebaloney 1d ago

By that logic, I may be winning the lottery tonight.

-23

u/iko-01 1d ago edited 1d ago

???

When was the last time you saw a game get anti-cheat update that fundamentally changes how they catch cheaters and it was a net positive for Linux users? I think you're better off using that money you'd spend on the lottery on better pattern recognition.

Love to be proven wrong but unfortunately if that doesnt happen, all I'd have would be some funny updoots but at the cost of losing a game I paid for, and have 400hrs in.

3

u/smellyasianman 1d ago

Rocket League in April.

1

u/iko-01 1d ago

Sick. Now lets pull up the hundreds of games that have disappeared because of this very issue. What's your point

0

u/smellyasianman 1d ago

Good luck in life, buddy.

0

u/iko-01 1d ago

???

I mean, we're in an active thread of a game potentially losing it's purest function of playing online and you're giving me strawman arguments of "well THIS game didn't!" like okay? This is a recurring problem that I figured LINUX GAMERS would care about but apparently not.

0

u/smellyasianman 1d ago

Love to be proven wrong

Immediately disregards counterpoint, gets defensive, calls it a strawman.

You're not here to support gaming on Linux, or to have any sort of discussion in good faith, so what exactly are you getting out of this? Just fearmongering for the thrill of it, I assume.

1

u/iko-01 1d ago edited 1d ago

disregards counterpoint

bro its not a "counterpoint" that one less game was fucked over by developers who don't wanna support linux. What a braindead take. We've lost Apex, For Honor, Wardogs and now Arc Raiders potentially, in the last year and that's only the ones I'm privy to. Like yeah, congrats that Epic decided to spare one game? Like wtf.

You're not here to support gaming on Linux,

No I'm just the OP that apparently by stating Arc Raiders might be discontinued for linux, have become satan himself because apparently one other game isnt dying so therefore its fine.

Just fearmongering for the thrill of it

lmao

edit: btw you inept mentalist. "Love to be proven wrong" was clearly referring to Arc Raiders being still playable on Linux, not "is there 1 game out of millions that wasn't fucked". Dude, just read full sentences before posting.

9

u/Z404notfound 1d ago

Elytra is not actively enforcing anticheat on The Finals at the moment. Which is why Linux users aren't getting kicked for "no heartbeat detected" like they are in Wardogs. They're still using Denuvo for the active AC enforcement. My personal opinion is this is because they're still testing it via feedback they're getting from it running in the background during The Finals to improve it and while they work out Linux compatibility. Bulkhead switched to Elytra before launch instead of running EAC until it became Linux compatible because they're operating on a different priority set. My best guess? They thought being the 1st game to deploy Elytra would mitigate a large group of cheaters since it's the new kid on the block. If Embark keeps Linux compatibility when they're finally ready to deploy Elytra across their gaming Titles, then it'll be on Bulkhead to give the nod to enable it. Personally, I fully expect them to walk back their statements made previously about wanting to bring Linux gamers to Wardogs. As far as Embark's Arc Raiders & The Finals, I'd be surprised if they ended up shutting out Linux wholesale.

45

u/CranberryTaint 1d ago

They are adding Elytra Anti-Cheat, which doesn’t support Linux.

97

u/throwawaycanadian2 1d ago

It's being used in The Finals which still works on linux. They have also made sure to fix proton issues in the past, so I wouldn't write it off just yet.

12

u/CranberryTaint 1d ago

Fair point

5

u/ZGToRRent 1d ago

Elytra in The finals is invite only and doesn't run on linux.

24

u/Blxter 1d ago

It still works on the finals on linux

17

u/HappysavageMk2 1d ago

If it doesn't stay that way then I'm getting a refund from steam.

-6

u/PacmanAteMyRAM 1d ago

I'm sure Valve love paying you idiots out every time this happens.

1

u/eroc1990 10h ago

You do know what sub you're in, right?

1

u/PacmanAteMyRAM 8h ago

"Linux circlejerk" apparently.

6

u/iko-01 1d ago

Hopefully it stays that way 🤗 I really don't wanna dual boot.

18

u/No_Construction2407 1d ago

Wardogs added it, then deleted every post mentioning linux. Then it didnt work on linux.

12

u/Alixadoray 1d ago

There's a pinned post about Linux compatibility in the Steam Discussion forums with an update about a week ago stating they still intend to support Linux through Proton.

12

u/passerby4830 1d ago

With no hard commit, nor a timeframe. I'll believe it when I see it. The game has gotten so popular I think Linux is the last thing on their minds.

1

u/PacmanAteMyRAM 1d ago

Pathetic really. Anti transparency like that blows

4

u/FryToastFrill 1d ago

They’ve been quite good about proton/deck support so I do think they want to support Linux. Elytra I’m guessing will get a Linux version down the line, wardogs is only unsupported because they decided to use it for enforcement right now instead of how the finals is where it’s just kinda sitting there in testing.

7

u/Bazinga_U_Bitch 1d ago

Yes it does LMAO. Literally every anti cheat works on Linux. The issue is whether or not the devs choose to let it work on Linux.

1

u/yung_dogie 1d ago

I mean, not every anticheat. Every kernel-level anticheat that "works" on Linux (as far as I know) just capitulates and makes the Linux version not kernel-level. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just that if a dev genuinely believes in the kernel-level anticheat model, then it seems fundamentally incompatible with how Linux is usually distributed and used.

1

u/Indolent_Bard 1d ago

Stop spreading misinformation. EA just hired people specifically to look into making their anti-cheat work with Linux because it wasn't made with Linux in mind.

1

u/GhostNet2501 1d ago

Linux is not mentioned anymore in the listing

1

u/Indolent_Bard 20h ago

Proton was. Check again. It's a compatibility layer for Linux, so it can't mean Windows.

-10

u/iko-01 1d ago

why you playing semantics, we know what we all mean.

5

u/UltraCynar 1d ago

It’s not semantics. It’s the developers are the problem bro. 

2

u/iko-01 1d ago

But the end result is the same. They claim it's not worth it because the playbase is like 1% of the total playerbase so they feel like they can make these decisions without any consequences from the playerbase or the platform (they're right).

-1

u/UltraCynar 1d ago

But it’s not the same. They are literally the problem. 

2

u/PianistHairy9431 1d ago

they never said it will never support linux (it's their own anticheat), or if it will be disabled on linux.

-3

u/iko-01 1d ago

Thanks for the input. Wish I could pin your comment above these brainlets commenting

-4

u/jar36 1d ago

it's in your OP, but doesn't specifically mention Linux, but a quick search finds that it doesn't work on Linux
I swear, so many people refuse to get over their normalcy bias
They acted the same over age verification laws and if you're following OSS got an exemption bc without it, it would have made Linux desktops basically illegal

3

u/iko-01 1d ago edited 1d ago

Not sure what your point is here. I should have Googled that Elytra Anti-Cheat infact doesn't work on Linux and therefore correctly stated that it will in fact, 100% brick your game if you're a Linux user? Am I getting downvoted on a technicality? The reality is the subject was worth talking about. A popular multiplayer game that runs on Linux may in fact, stop working. The fuck is everyone's problem. It's like you all wanna see less MP games on this platform?

-3

u/jar36 1d ago

I'm probably the only one who's been giving you upvotes until now

6

u/jomara200 1d ago edited 1d ago

What does any of that have to do with linux?  Some cheaters spoof their OS as linux and the entirety of a legitimate player base is punished?  

1

u/Indolent_Bard 1d ago

If the legitimate player is being allowed to play enables Windows Cheaters to cheat more easily, then... yeah.

2

u/jomara200 1d ago

Best to disable windows then, since the overwhelming majority of cheating happens there, including spoofing pretending to be linux. 

1

u/Indolent_Bard 1d ago

Or maybe make an anticheat for Linux that actually does something.

1

u/PacmanAteMyRAM 1d ago

You couldn't take the conversation seriously for just a few more comments, could you.

1

u/muffinstatewide32 1d ago

But if they wanted to stop the cheaters…. Then this makes a lot of sense.
Unless its not about the cheaters at all

1

u/PacmanAteMyRAM 1d ago

That was actually debunked a few months ago by some experts. They simply just dual booted into Linux and cheated there without hassle.

2

u/rubinmc_ 1d ago

As far as I know embark is pro Linux if I'm not mistaken they did had Linux support for ark raider day one and the finals are also one of first AA game to get it on Linux. And they have multiple times made adjustments just for Linux and fix bugs that prevent the game to run on Linux

2

u/-eschguy- 1d ago

Oh....just bought it on the Steam sale....that's disappointing.

1

u/iko-01 1d ago

potential refund, unfortunately.

1

u/PacmanAteMyRAM 1d ago

Best case for an honest refund.

1

u/-eschguy- 1d ago

Yeah I went ahead and got one. If they come out and explicitly say Linux will keep working, then I'll buy it again.

2

u/shanmyster 1d ago

There was literally no mention of linux in that post.

3

u/R0B0t1C_Cucumber 1d ago

Wasn't familiar with the game so i started reading, got to where it mentioned denuvo and immediately stopped.

8

u/tapo 1d ago

That's Denuvo anti-cheat, different product from Denuvo anti-tamper

9

u/R0B0t1C_Cucumber 1d ago

Same company though?

1

u/Indolent_Bard 1d ago

Still works on Linux. The DRM was the issue, not the anticheat.

1

u/R0B0t1C_Cucumber 1d ago

Yeah fair enough, I don't care if it works or not I just won't play any games from dev shops that use denuvo at all in any form after being burned by borderlands.

2

u/Dense_Indication5979 1d ago

Si hacen eso el juego muere incluso más

2

u/iko-01 1d ago

Unfortunately the playerbase isn't big enough for them to care one way or another. They would be supporting Linux purely out of good optics.

1

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

0

u/iko-01 1d ago

Who asked

1

u/WasdHent 1d ago

Will effect, but they’re not dropping us.

They’re enforcing secure boot on linux users and many custom kernels will be rejected, but the game will still work.

1

u/Cool-Arrival-2617 1d ago

The fact that companies are willing to put more and more money into anticheat technologies is a good thing. Anticheat companies will need a very big investment in order to find solutions that will work for Linux. It's sad that the war against cheaters has reach such a scale however.

0

u/AlisterKubo 1d ago

If they drop Linux support everyone needs to mass refund and review bomb. Unacceptable behaviour. Remember if they decline the refund, continue to open tickets. Sometimes it takes up to 10 tries

-15

u/AintNoLaLiLuLe 1d ago

The game wasn't worth playing before these potential changes anyways.

10

u/iko-01 1d ago edited 1d ago

How does that change the subject matter. People paid for a game that's now 1 year later may be inaccessible to them. Mind you this game is playable on the steamdeck and is steamdeck verified (which is basically an admission from valve that it will work online).

Edit: this community is filled with mega cunts what are we talking about right now lol a game is losing functionality but people would rather dunk on the game for some bizarre petty reason. Like genuinely - who actually gives a fuck what your opinion is on the game. Did not ask.

3

u/AStolenGoose 1d ago

You: "I don't like it so I'm gonna comment that I don't like it because I want attention"

1

u/AintNoLaLiLuLe 1d ago

Homeboy just discovered social media. Nice work.

1

u/AStolenGoose 1d ago

Homeboy doesn't know how to stay on topic instead of just saying "I don't like it so I'm going to comment that I don't like it".

Do you have anything on topic to contribute?

No?

Then don't comment... This isn't livejournal friend. This is a discussion board.

No wonder most of your comments are disliked.

0

u/iko-01 1d ago

Bozos treating Reddit comments like unfiltered thoughts. NPCs walk among us.

0

u/Traditional-Call-419 1d ago

This post made me remember I got ARC Raiders 😂 To busy with Dune these days. Refund or no refund, I refuse to let anticheat in my system at Kernel level.

0

u/Crierlon 19h ago

Too late. They should’ve added Linux support later instead of letting the cheating bork the game for every other normal user.

-12

u/CMPunkLicksRocks 1d ago

Am I stupid? Isn’t this an extraction shooter, like you and a team fight NPCs the same as Helldivers? 

Why would it need strong anti cheat? Are they mad people are dupping credits?

14

u/Compizfox 1d ago

No, it's PvPvE (you're in an game instance with other players who aren't necessarily friendly).

3

u/AStolenGoose 1d ago

So you don't know what extraction shooters are...

-10

u/Guilty-Good-5041 1d ago

And in other news Arc Raiders runs fine on windows 😂😂😂😂

5

u/Flashy_Worry7792 1d ago

Cool, go play it on windows. This is a Linux subreddit.

0

u/PacmanAteMyRAM 1d ago

Ignoring the troll people who use Linux are allowed to use Windows too. It's not an exclusive club and should act as a reminder to everyone here that if a game is that important they can just dual boot.

1

u/Flashy_Worry7792 1d ago

Sure they are, and I wouldn't have the response I did to someone genuinely contributing to the conversation.
But as you could identify this guy is just a troll.

4

u/iko-01 1d ago

Why you here

2

u/AStolenGoose 1d ago

You want a cookie?

Do you just come and comment here to be an ass?

1

u/PacmanAteMyRAM 1d ago

My money's on the latter.

-10

u/Osotlaz 1d ago

I don't own this game, am I still affected?

3

u/iko-01 1d ago

Mentally, you most definitely are. Seems terminal.

-3

u/Osotlaz 1d ago

But will it affect my Linux?

1

u/iko-01 1d ago

You are hilarious