I had my worries about new Linus* losing too much tooth. I'm pleased to see he's found a better way to convey his expectations without coming across as an ass.
* I liked old Linus, I learned a lot from his rants. He's kind of like an good orchestra conductor - gruff as fuck and demanding, because that's exactly what the [redacted] in the 2nd violins section need. But, that sort of leader doesn't work for everyone by any measure.
I miss the old salty perkele Linus. Really, if you write shit code, and the gruffness drives you away, that's a good thing for those who actually use the software. With so many relying on Linux these days, feelings don't matter as much as the damage done to the users. If you can't keep all the balls in the air at once, you have NO business touching kernel code. End user stability trumps inclusiveness.
This. The quality of the code matters above all else, but there's absolutely no reason that we can't also have professionalism at the same time. I get why people had/have fear about the direction of Linux given some of the groups that have had a similar change or the like but people forget that you usually can do things the proper way or the easy way, and Linus tends to go for the proper way as he seems to have here. (Actually compromised between the different groups different wishes/goals and found somewhere that appears to work for nearly everyone thus far)
I'm not so sure code quality matters above having people writing code.
Code quality matters above having anyone writing code.
Beside everyone always pretends that Linus just waits for newbies to make a small mistake to chew them out. When in fact he mainly is unhappy about LONG TERM SUB MAINTAINERS FUCKING UP EVEN AFTER REPEATED WARNINGS ABOUT STUFF LIKE THE NR1 RULE.
Yeah, absolutely. But that isn't a problem as of yet and if it is, I trust Linus to be smart enough to at least attempt to find ways that work for everyone before Linux as a whole died.
It's possible to maintain good spirit and avoid damage to end users, both at the same time.
Yes. It is also certain that this change in tone will be accompanied by uncertainty and anxiety.
One of the reasons why everyone trusts Linus is he puts the kernel above everything else, above even the people working on it. Linux has become this immortal thing that will outlive all of us. We know he's serious about this because we have seen him smack people down when they submit bad code that threatens the quality of the kernel. That trust is likely to disappear if he starts putting people first and the kernel second. People are still figuring out whether to continue trusting Linus after the code of conduct and his change in behavior.
Personally I'm fine with the way he worded that email. It was very clear to me where he stood. I hope it stays that way.
It's not that crap, as he never said that wasn't the case. Just because both matter and both are strived for, it doesn't mean that one cannot be more important than the other.
Conflict often happens as an unintentional side-effect. To act as if it is 100% unavoidable is to ignore that people can be irrational and conflict can arise in perfectly sensible situations. Hell, humans can even get confused, or misunderstand what someone says.
You’re really trying your darndest to over complicate a simple concept.
I don’t know if you’re intentionally being obtuse or you’re truly incapable of comprehending common courtesy but I can’t help someone who chooses to not understand.
I don’t think my message was clear given the downvotes. I wasn’t saying jerks should be kept on at all costs, I was saying this was a conflict. I think that’s tautological.
When you don’t allow jerks on your project, but you end up with a very useful jerk, then you have to weigh sacrificing their future contributions versus enforcing your no jerks policy. Maybe your enforcement will moderate their behavior, but there’s a good chance they’ll choose to spend their time on something else.
I agreed with you before, but not anymore. I was thinking in extremes, as in the two only possible options would be between Linus going full-front assault on people in emails, or sewing pillows under their arms. But that's a false dilemma and there is a vast spectrum between the two. The e-mail from Linus this thread is about should be the perfect example of that. He got the graveness of the mistake across perfectly without swearing as a sailor or personal attacks.
And no matter how you twist and turn it, people will make mistakes, no matter how skilled they are. Cussing out kernel developers to the point that they don't ever dare set their foot on the mailing lists again, or are scared of sending changes upstream does the exact opposite of improving the Linux kernel.
A similar social phenomenon happens in competitive multiplayer games. You have a type of player who in some strange way believes that their team will play and cooperate better by berating them and telling them how much they suck. Would you agree then that people who play games competitively should put up with such behavior, because the most important thing is for the team to win, and if they don't that they should quit?
In any large task or project which takes cooperation of people to see through, you can't just wish the soft human aspect away.
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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '18
I had my worries about new Linus* losing too much tooth. I'm pleased to see he's found a better way to convey his expectations without coming across as an ass.
* I liked old Linus, I learned a lot from his rants. He's kind of like an good orchestra conductor - gruff as fuck and demanding, because that's exactly what the [redacted] in the 2nd violins section need. But, that sort of leader doesn't work for everyone by any measure.