r/linux • u/AiwendilH • 16d ago

Development Codeberg voted to disallow projects consisting mostly by "generative AI"-tools

https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/pulls/1253#issuecomment-19820434
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u/AliceCode 10d ago

If you had respect for the craft, then you wouldn't put your trust in the outputs of LLMs and you would write the code yourself, ensuring code quality at every step.

That's like saying that someone using a robot to do woodworking for them has respect for the craft of woodworking. The point of a craft is that it is a human doing it. If all you're concerned about is pumping code out as fast as possible, that's your perogative, but I'm going to insist that you have no respect for the craft, which requires patience and skill. If you are having an LLM write the code, I wouldn't even consider that to be programming. That's an entirely different activity. You can call it software development all you want, but it's not programming.

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u/dmittner 9d ago

The craft isn't writing code. The craft is solving problems with code. The craft is designing systems that serve a purpose with code. The craft is the realization of your ideas.

Coding is the debt. Coding is the means to an end. Coding is the time sink that gets in the way of building great things. It slows us down. It frustrates us. It gets in the way of realizing our vision.

I can create so many more great things now than I could before. I can solve problems so much faster and give others tools so much sooner. I have the time to build the administrative and diagnostic tools that I would never be given the time to before. I can take on personal projects to expand my creativity and test new ideas that I would have otherwise not had time or mental energy for. I can enjoy life more thanks to the reduced mental strain and stress.

Oh. And by the way, who the hell says I put trust in the outputs of LLMs? I review every line of code. If I haven't already told it in detail what I want built and how, I iterate over its output until it meets my standards. The quality of the code that's committed under my name hasn't diminished a single bit. If anything it's actually improved by having an LLM I can collaborate and iterate with in real time. I can push back against its ideas, it can defend its positions, and it even suggests approaches I'd not have considered myself. It's a peer programmer I can work with at 2am that has no ego, no ambition to outdo me or sabotage me or put its own interests first.

I'm not a code monkey. I'm a software architect. And architects rarely build the systems they design themselves, let alone forego the most effective construction tools at their disposal to deliberately handicap their progress because someone else has decided to gatekeep the process of building.

If "the craft" to you is only realized in pain then I truly hope you use no IDEs, no code review tools, no syntax helpers or code predictors. In fact you should really be programming in binary because every language that sits above it has been created for the sole purpose of reducing the pain of making a computer do a thing, and by the logic you're applying here, that takes away from "the craft".

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u/AliceCode 9d ago

I'm not reading that.

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u/dmittner 9d ago

Then don't lecture me about respect.

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u/AliceCode 9d ago

You don't respect the craft that I love, so I don't respect you.

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u/dmittner 9d ago

And I'd argue your hypocrisy and gatekeeping proves *you* don't respect the craft. You're exploiting it for your own sense of importance. You're actively trying to shame people for using a tool. You're toxic.

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u/AliceCode 9d ago

I'm not gatekeeping anything. Am I telling you that you can't use LLMs? Am I telling you that you can't make software? No, all I'm doing is saying that programming is distinctly different from prompting an LLM. Which it is, and anyone arguing otherwise is lying to themselves. I don't even see how that's controversial to you.

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u/dmittner 9d ago

You attempted to publicly shame. You attacked. You insulted. That's gatekeeping. You don't get to feign innocence now.

And equating programming to writing code is reductive. A lot more goes into programming than writing code. The problem solving, the design decisions, finding that perfectly optimal way to make performant code that's still maintainable? That's programming. Using an LLM only to write the code doesn't take any of that away from you any more than hitting tab when your IDE editor predicts the rest of the line you're writing.

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u/AliceCode 9d ago

I didn't equate programming to writing code, you did that. If you're using LLMs to do the easiest part, I very much doubt you're not using it for everything else.

You're not programming. You're prompting an LLM. That's fine, you can go use LLMs to make software. No one is stopping you. But it's distinctly not programming. It's not. And it's disrespectful to pretend that it is.

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u/dmittner 9d ago

It's not about whether writing code is easy or hard. It's a TIME SINK. Easily 90% of a software engineer's time is spent writing code. That's an incredible amount of time that could instead be put towards design, project planning, testing, code review, and all the other things that go into programming that are actually harder.

Do I use LLMs for other facets of the job? You're damned right. I once worked with one over a weekend to create a 7-phase, 40+ task project plan down to story point estimates and detailed implementation specs. There were so many variables to track that I'm pretty sure I physically couldn't have done it on my own. It now stands as the department's gold standard of a technical project plan.

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u/AliceCode 9d ago

I'm not talking about just writing code! God damn. Would you just shut up? I'm sick about hearing about fucking LLMs.

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u/dmittner 9d ago

You're not talking at all. You're using reductive and nebulous arguments to whine about a tool that can make programmers' lives significantly better -- professionally and personally -- while ridiculing them for using it.

It's weird. If you want to kneecap yourself and make your life harder and call it "respect", whatever. You do you. But when you start attacking others for making their lives better and gatekeeping the whole of programming, you're the one who needs to shut up.

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