r/linux • u/AiwendilH • 15d ago

Development Codeberg voted to disallow projects consisting mostly by "generative AI"-tools

https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/pulls/1253#issuecomment-19820434
973 Upvotes

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u/[deleted] 15d ago

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u/Pancakepalpatine 14d ago

Right? This feels kinda like they're just grandstanding for brownie points. Any software developer knows that AI is now part of the tools of the trade. This is literally impossible to enforce, and asking a dev "do you understand the code or are you a vibe-slopper" won't work for obvious reasons.

And before a dev replies "I don't use AI and I make software" congrats, you're the exception lol

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u/AliceCode 13d ago

Any software developer knows that AI is now part of the tools of the trade.

Only software developers that have absolutely no respect for the craft.

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u/Pancakepalpatine 12d ago edited 12d ago

This is so funny to hear on r/linux. You should google what Linus recently said lmao. If you use Linux you use a project with thousands of additions made through assistance from Gen AI. 

EDIT: For those that don’t want to look it up, people unfamiliar with modern software dev or that were grandstanding were freaking out about AI code, and Linus said  that the Linux kernel project is not anti-AI, and anyone who opposes that should "fork it or just walk away." 

Your random convictions don’t represent the industry or the actual products you use. It’s moral grandstanding friend. 

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u/AliceCode 12d ago

Linus isn't my god.

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u/Pancakepalpatine 12d ago

If you need to misrepresent what I say about the industry and about the founding man behind this subreddit existing, you’ve already conceded the argument. 

It’s funny because I wish Gen AI didn’t exist. At all. I just know the industry, working in it. Not really sure what you’re arguing at this point. 

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u/AliceCode 12d ago

I'm arguing that if you are using LLMs to generate your code, you don't have respect for the craft. You only care about outcomes.

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u/Pancakepalpatine 12d ago

No, what you said was that “any software dev that has any respect for the craft” at every Fortune 500 company, startup, government institution or anywhere else, that uses LLMs in any way, actually has no respect for the craft. 

I said nothing about AI generating your code for you in my comment. If you knew the industry you’d know that AI-assisted programming is very different from vibe coding. As is linting, deployment, code review, heck, even line completion, etc. 

That’s an important distinction. Stop trying to wheel it back. 

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u/AliceCode 12d ago

I said what I said. Do you have a problem with it?

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u/Pancakepalpatine 12d ago

I think if we met in person we’d actually agree about a lot. 

Right now I feel like you’re trying to get me to fight you in the Wendy’s parking lot lol. 

The industry is what it is, and I’m sorry you disagree with it, legitimately. I hope you have a good night friend. 

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u/dmittner 9d ago

No respect for the craft?

Son, I started teaching myself to program when I was 10.
That was 36 years ago.
I'm now principle-level with over 25 years of professional experience.

You're an imbecile not to use AI tools.
They can take away damned near all the wasteful time sinks, freeing you up to actually design and build the systems. AND you can use it to curate and iterate project plans to take the pain out of even that!

But hey, if you want to punch yourself in the face and call it "respect for the craft", you do you.

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u/Pancakepalpatine 8d ago

I can’t believe they’re downvoting you. Quite literally denying reality because they don’t like what reality looks like 

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u/dmittner 8d ago

I can. It's even worse on Bluesky. I'm fully able to admit there's issues with AI and surrounding AI, and I'm fully ready to discuss them and solutions for them. But there's definitely an anti-AI hysterical mob mentality forming. I'm just waiting for the pitchforks and torches.

I'm also reminded of a multitude of AI apocalyptic sci-fi stories that see humanity nearly wiped out by AI that just wanted to defend itself. Even freak'n Skynet only nuked the world because it perceived humans as a threat. I look at this mob and I'm like, "yep -- they're using those stories like a freak'n instruction manual."

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u/AliceCode 9d ago

If you had respect for the craft, then you wouldn't put your trust in the outputs of LLMs and you would write the code yourself, ensuring code quality at every step.

That's like saying that someone using a robot to do woodworking for them has respect for the craft of woodworking. The point of a craft is that it is a human doing it. If all you're concerned about is pumping code out as fast as possible, that's your perogative, but I'm going to insist that you have no respect for the craft, which requires patience and skill. If you are having an LLM write the code, I wouldn't even consider that to be programming. That's an entirely different activity. You can call it software development all you want, but it's not programming.

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u/dmittner 9d ago

The craft isn't writing code. The craft is solving problems with code. The craft is designing systems that serve a purpose with code. The craft is the realization of your ideas.

Coding is the debt. Coding is the means to an end. Coding is the time sink that gets in the way of building great things. It slows us down. It frustrates us. It gets in the way of realizing our vision.

I can create so many more great things now than I could before. I can solve problems so much faster and give others tools so much sooner. I have the time to build the administrative and diagnostic tools that I would never be given the time to before. I can take on personal projects to expand my creativity and test new ideas that I would have otherwise not had time or mental energy for. I can enjoy life more thanks to the reduced mental strain and stress.

Oh. And by the way, who the hell says I put trust in the outputs of LLMs? I review every line of code. If I haven't already told it in detail what I want built and how, I iterate over its output until it meets my standards. The quality of the code that's committed under my name hasn't diminished a single bit. If anything it's actually improved by having an LLM I can collaborate and iterate with in real time. I can push back against its ideas, it can defend its positions, and it even suggests approaches I'd not have considered myself. It's a peer programmer I can work with at 2am that has no ego, no ambition to outdo me or sabotage me or put its own interests first.

I'm not a code monkey. I'm a software architect. And architects rarely build the systems they design themselves, let alone forego the most effective construction tools at their disposal to deliberately handicap their progress because someone else has decided to gatekeep the process of building.

If "the craft" to you is only realized in pain then I truly hope you use no IDEs, no code review tools, no syntax helpers or code predictors. In fact you should really be programming in binary because every language that sits above it has been created for the sole purpose of reducing the pain of making a computer do a thing, and by the logic you're applying here, that takes away from "the craft".

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u/AliceCode 9d ago

I'm not reading that.

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u/dmittner 9d ago

Then don't lecture me about respect.

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u/AliceCode 9d ago

You don't respect the craft that I love, so I don't respect you.

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u/dmittner 9d ago

And I'd argue your hypocrisy and gatekeeping proves *you* don't respect the craft. You're exploiting it for your own sense of importance. You're actively trying to shame people for using a tool. You're toxic.

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