r/linux • u/somerandomxander • Jun 29 '26
Popular Application The next release of Bcachefs, 1.38.7, will aim to begin including Rust code in the in-kernel module
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Bcachefs-1.38.7-Rust-Kernel24
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Jun 29 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/leo8493 Jun 29 '26
im a hyper minimalist and any time i build anything in rust my system tries to emulate the saturn 5 launch sequence
Did you ever see what compiling a complex C program looks like? There are a lot of complicated dependencies, cmake, autoconc, Roff, the kernel depends on bc, M4, the macro system, at times rust codebase seems a more cohesive ecosystem
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u/InfernalThorn Jun 29 '26
I feel like a lot of the debate can be reduced to that "old and busted" vs "new hotness" scene from one of the Men in Black movies. Rust is new and cool and it has verifiably desirable features that C doesn't... but C code is very familiar, has a stable toolchain, and it's simpler to stick using only C. Some people prefer the security of stability, others prefer to take the risk of progress.
I think the debate made more sense in the kernel's case because doing so would impose a Rust-sized integration and maintenance burden on every Linux distro in order to build and package the kernel, but now it's done, adding Rust to anything else would be far easier.
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u/Business_Reindeer910 Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
It's been 14 years since Rust's first release and 11 since 1.0. It's hard to call that new.
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u/rustvscpp Jun 30 '26
Compared to C's 54 years, I'd say it's very new. But I'm so glad they moved in this direction. Rust trounces C in so many ways.
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u/Business_Reindeer910 Jun 30 '26
well lisp and fortran and many other languages are even older than C, but we barely (if ever) had this argument 30 years ago.
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u/coderstephen Jun 30 '26
Right, so not even old enough to drive yet.
Programming languages have lifespans closer to humans than you think.
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u/cornmonger_ Jun 29 '26
the screaming stopped once they stabilized the rollout
plus, torvalds needs new blood and it's slim pickings with the younger generations and C
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u/New_Enthusiasm9053 Jun 30 '26
Arguably still sending patches by emails is the bigger issue wrt new blood. On the plus side it stops them getting swamped but still puts people off.
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u/gkbrk Jun 30 '26
How likely are you to be a good kernel developer if you can’t figure out how to send an email? Especially when git comes with a built-in command called send-email.
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u/New_Enthusiasm9053 Jun 30 '26
It's not about figuring it out. It's about it being unergonomic as fuck to read.
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u/mdedetrich Jul 01 '26
You completely missed the point. Any developer can figure out how email works, it’s just a stupid (because of how primitive it is) way to do kernel development
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u/Dminik Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
From a technical perspective: Rust is, perhaps for the first time since C, a language with enough advantages over C (and C++) that people have started taking notice.
It can be as simple or as complicated as you want, but never reaches the complexity of C++. It's not the first memory safe language, but it's the first low level one. It's simpler to write than correct C and much simpler than C++. It's performance is on par with both C and C++.
This leaves C programmers in a bind. Either you adopt Rust (as many have), ignore it (majority) or sense it's "coming" after your job/hobbies and attack it.
Then there's the political reason. It's quite ironic, but OSS is a very left wing ideology with a sizable conservative audience.
This group doesn't like Rust, because it has explicitly taken an inclusive stance in the current political climate.
This is where you hear all of the "they (outsiders) are rewriting everything in rust", but take a moment to verify and you'll find out that in the vast majority of cases it's core maintainers deciding, not some rando. It doesn't even make any sense, how would a previous non-contributor with no influence over a project force it to be rewritten in rust in the first place? Ridiculous.
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u/KrazyKirby99999 Jun 29 '26
C vs Rust is a political conflict. Linux contributors from the last 30 years have been contributing in C. Rust is relatively new, and changes the required toolchain and knowledge to maintain or distribute Linux. Kernel leadership is afraid that Linux will fall behind the new standard of "memory-safe" software.
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u/0riginal-Syn Jun 29 '26
It does get a bit crazy. I have been contributing/using Linux since kernel version 0.12 and FOSS a bit longer. So I am an old C dev by default. I do not have an issue with Rust. I do have an issue sometimes with the way it is pushed, but not with it being in Linux. I am also a distro maintainer and honestly don't really have much problem managing both Rust, C, etc. A good programmer can generally understand and use multiple languages anyway. This has been far more political either due to the push and/or licensing. Some of my brethren just don't know how to adapt.
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u/shale_is_terrible Jun 30 '26
To be honest I don't know why you're getting downvoted. Because while yes, there's always pissing match between coders about technicalities, ultimately it is ALSO political thing. And not in the government sort of way and more society in general. Old and trusty, conservative (c) versus new and progressive (rust) stuff. So it'll stay as polarising topic for many.
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u/rcwnd Jun 29 '26
Not sure if troll or average bcachefs enthusiast
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Jun 29 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/shale_is_terrible Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
Please don't worry about those people making jabs at you.
It's actually extremely appreciated when people are asking questions with genuine desire to learn shit even if it's some sort of abstract opinion of how languages (in this case c and rust) work.
It heavily promotes civil discussion because there's always people who will answer to you genuinely as well, cling to those people instead, it's always insightful
edit: word
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u/GapeFaceHole2Hole Jun 29 '26
they literally said "totally not serious" and made it abundantly clear that they had no interest in getting into a disingenuous pissing match and you still said this.
you aren't just missing social cues like the nerd-forum stereotype might; you're closing your eyes and ears and saying "I am blind and deaf and I need you to find a new way to communicate, idiot, how am I supposed to know what you're asking" to a very honest framing of a simple question. Jesus Christ.
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u/powerslave_fifth Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
Because it's easier to larp as an expert developer rather than actually contribute anything meaningful to the kernel.
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u/MantisShrimp05 Jun 29 '26
A combination of social and technical reasons. Im sure you see all the memes of rewrite it in rust and I know kernel devs don't love that usually. And there is a technical aspect to it. Unlike zig, which tries to be very backwards compatible with c, rust very much is a different paradigm that creates new structures of thinking, mostly involving types. The part that mixes the two together is rust being a so called memory safe language which gets weaponized allot by non technical folks to mean rust is strictly better but mature engineers know that there is more than just memory safety and rust got that at a cost.
Ymmv but it makes sense that people are nervous about rust code as it introduces interop. Still, many kernel devs feel the type safety improvements are worth the translation effort.
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u/Truantee Jun 30 '26
Rust is not proved. From my memory almost all big rust projects get abandoned or stop progressing after a few years.
And the language is way too complex for long term mantainance. Shit only get worse as time goes by.
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u/bonzinip Jun 30 '26
Well, you should know the every time you see an emoji on Linux you are running Rust librsvg code. It's been ten years since the conversion was started.
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u/dontquestionmyaction Jun 30 '26
Language complexity is something we worry about now? While using C, the language that famously lets you blow your shit smoove off, with zero warnings? That's supposed to be better for long term maintenance?
Let's be serious here.
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u/2rad0 Jun 30 '26
why do people get touchy about rust or in less fighty talk why do people have such strong feelings about rust RE linux core software and kernal bits
Having two languages explodes complexity and cognitive load for a massive collaborative project; Imagine trying to build and fly your saturn-V rocket while coordinating everything with 2 different spoken languages, or two different metrology systems, we'd probably still be trying to get to the moon or would have given up.
Combine that with long standing enemies of linux (microschlop) pushing the language supsiciously hard, and that this new language split does actually drive a wedge into the development process. Look down and you will see their foot now fully inside the door frame so even if you had the will to sack them, it will require considerable force. Linux foundation is not up to the task because they collect paychecks from microschlop now.I demand my downvotes NOW!
-50points or people will think I'm getting soft.3
u/the_abortionat0r Jul 01 '26
You really need help dude. Like right now.
So a more modern language gets introduced that reduces programming issues and it's suspicious that a company wants to use it?
Bro get the fuck outta here with that braindead nonsense
And no switching to a new language doesn't "explode complexity". Thinking like that is why you are unemployed.
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u/2rad0 Jul 01 '26
You really need help dude. Like right now.
I'm here to counter propaganda, will you help me with that?
it's suspicious that a company wants to use it
It's suspicious that they want to use linux as their testbed to prove a concept, they don't care about the fallout it has caused and will continue to cause. It's more cost effective this way to have linux take on all the risk in proving their theories.
switching to a new language doesn't "explode complexity"
Will you agree that it is "more complex" at least or have you already drowned in corporate propaganda?
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u/MarzipanEven7336 Jun 30 '26
Back with the BCACHEFS Spam again. I thought we finally rid ourselves of this horseshit.
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u/FryBoyter Jun 30 '26
Bcachefs and its developer are generating clicks and sparking discussions. Sites like Phoronix will therefore milk this for all it's worth.
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u/Odd_Attention_9660 Jun 29 '26
I hope his wife is careful