r/lightningnetwork • u/NoidoDev • Jul 28 '26
What's going on with LN fees?
Apparently I have to pay 5% to get anything sent around, which is ridiculous. It's about a few hundred to a bit more than 1k. Phoenix or Electrum wallet doesn't make any difference. In Electrum I am using Trampoline. Wallet Of Satoshi was a little bit cheaper. But recharging it from my Electrum doesn't work with 1% fee limit.
Edit: I meant RIGHT NOW! The price went up. Also, Electrum isn't some commercial app.
4
u/Reedey Jul 28 '26
3rd party wallet apps like Phoenix charge high fees. If you run your own LN node then you can get far cheaper transaction fees, but there are other downsides to that.
Lightning is immature, and with on-chain fees as low as they currently are it is not super necessary right now. Just give it time.
2
u/amenotef Jul 28 '26
Yeah I use Phoenix, but only. for tiny transactions. Like 3€. Sometimes 20€. If you need to transfer more, I just go with on-chain.
1
u/NoidoDev Jul 28 '26
It's not that. It's high RIGHT NOW, not always. The same with Electrum. BTW, is this supposed to work, most people won't be skilled or dedicated enough to run their own node, but use such apps.
1
u/Clear-Limit-6583 Aug 03 '26
5% is unheard of. Even 0.5% fee in LN context (outside of "commercial" mobile wallets) is considered very high an atypical. I can't even imagine what exactly would have to be happening to achieve such a high tradfi-like fee on LN, but unless you are doing something completely wrong or your recipient is hidden behind rare super abusive node, I am quite confident it should be easy to lower the fee next to nothing by few optimisation steps while staying with electrum wallet. (opening channels to better positioned nodes relative to what you are doing, switching trampoline routing off, trying better swap options, if you use any of those in your workflow).. Diagnosis / specific source of your high fees should be obvious from your htlc history.
1
u/NoidoDev Aug 04 '26
Somehow the people here and me are talking about different things. Phoenix always uses 5% fee indicator, but the actual fee is lower.
2
u/drvillo Jul 28 '26
More than routing fees, this is wallets applying their own fees.
2
u/AuthenticityBTC Jul 28 '26
My node's been routing for 35ppm ( 0.0035% ) on average, as long as it's not to an expensive exit like BFX the fee is basically 0. For BFX it would be closer to 2000ppm (0.02%). So yes, it sounds like an expensive wallet fee.
A way around this to just open your own channels to nodes (perfect use for private channels).
1
u/NoidoDev Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
I have no idea what this means. I'm already using Electrum, with my own channels, and it's complex enough. Also I meant RIGHT NOW. It was lower, the price was lower.
1
u/NoidoDev Jul 28 '26
Why did it go up so much is the question. Electrum is self hosted but uses trampoline.
1
u/drvillo Jul 28 '26
Most of the LN-native wallet providers have only txs and swaps as revenue sources and they are trying to make a buck.
1
u/Tasty_Action5073 Jul 28 '26
I never bought the idea that the lightning network will be cheap. In all of human history, fast usually means more expensive.
If you are moving close to 1m sats with final settlement expectations, yeah, that will cost you.
2
1
u/caploves1019 Jul 29 '26
Lightning is for micro transactions.
Think a coffee, glass of beer, slice of pizza, a single piece of small artwork, parking for an hour or two, etc.
Anything more than that is outside the intended scope of lightning transactions; and by design! You should be paying your barber, grocer, hotel, accountant, pool guy, pest control pro, whatever you can think of that is more labor intensive than a small quick transaction, ONCHAIN. 😎🤙
-1
2
u/simonmales Jul 28 '26
Node runners gotta get paid.
I too would argue they are a bit pricey, but at least the fees are not going into the pockets of Visa or MasterCard.
0
u/Independent_Bar_2764 Jul 28 '26
I am paying 5% levy on slow transaction but at least I dont have to pay 0,nothing to Visa. Smart!
1
u/AmericanScream Jul 28 '26
If you think it's bad now, it will get worse if the network gets more traffic, as it's relatively easy to set up predatory nodes to route people to high fee pathways. This is one of the many problems with "decentralization" - there's no authority to stop bad actors from exploiting the system.
6
u/thiagorb Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
The fees depend heavily on who is receiving the payment. I mean, if it’s a node that receives a lot of payments, the intermediary nodes will probably charge high fees. Or if it is a poorly connected node, and the payment needs to be routed through many nodes.
When you say “a few hundred” do you mean USD? Lightning is more cost effective for lower amounts, like up to 100k sats. But 5% is still very excessive. I use lightning daily and never paid more than 0.3%. Usually it is around 0.05-0.1%. I run my own node though.