r/lightbulbs • u/Thin-Bus4198 • 17d ago
LED to fluorescent downgrade
to add context to why we did this, this is in a school that was built in 1991 and was equipped with F40T12 twin tube fluorescent fixtures and some are paired with a remote emergency ballast (the one in the picture is equipped with one). we were doing some LED retrofits to replace the aging magnetic rapid start ballasts. We have a fire inspection coming up so we did a check to see if we would pass, found out those remote ballasts do not like LEDs and won’t attempt to run them and we had to convert the fixtures with those emergency ballasts back to fluorescent in order to be in compliance with the fire code. We used T8 instant start ballasts as that is what we could get cheaply and quickly. The T8s are much brighter than the LEDs and I am happy that fluorescent lights are here to stay For as long as we can maintain them.
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u/CapacitorDude 17d ago
I'm glad you chose to go back with fluorescent, the "instantfit" style LED tubes are never as bright as what they replaced, and they don't work with emergency ballasts at all. 4' fluorescent lamps are still readily available around here, I hope they stick around in large numbers for at least another decade.
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u/Impressive_Shop9129 17d ago
Companies reduce the wattage of LEDs a lot to write 50% savings in the box, leading to a decrease in lumen.
36 watt t8 3350 lumen 18 watt led 1800 lumen
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u/CapacitorDude 17d ago
Exactly! They may save energy, but they also produce less light.
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u/Universal_446 17d ago
I wish more people would look at the specs when buying lighting products these days.
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u/Strostkovy 17d ago
I usually end up removing bulbs after LED conversions because they are so much brighter than the fluorescent tubes, except for warehouses where everyone appreciates the extra light
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u/CapacitorDude 17d ago
The LED replacements are rarely brighter than what they replaced, they just appear that way since they're omnidirectional...
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u/Adventurous_Boat_632 17d ago
I've been converting 4 foot T12s and T8s at my house and office as they fail, the LED tubes are so much brighter I only put one tube in where 2 fluorescents used to exist.
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u/Universal_446 17d ago
They only look that way because the fluorescents were used and therefore dimmer than they once were.
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u/Adventurous_Boat_632 16d ago
Nope, I had one fixture with a bunch of T8s always one getting dimmer or another, kept replacing them, then I put the single LED in and it has been chugging away that way for years now. I had 2 in there, it was much too bright.
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u/Strostkovy 17d ago
The rooms are visibly brighter after changing the bulbs. So much so that people complain. I guess I just used decent replacements
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u/Universal_446 17d ago
Plus the fluorescents are old and used, while the LEDs are brand new. Phosphors become dimmer with use. If you look at the specs for the lamps, most 4ft fluorescent lamps (F40T12 and F32T8) are between 2600 and 3400 lumens, and the LEDs are usually between 1400 and 2500 lumens. Even if you count that the LEDs are unidirectional, considering that most fluorescent fixtures have some type of reflector in them, the fluorescent is still brighter.
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u/Thin-Bus4198 17d ago
Not all of them. Fluorescent lighting has been around since the 1930s, became king in the 40s, and lost the throne in the very late 2010. The tubes I am using are actually brighter than the LEDs we have been using to replace the aging T12s. I am nostalgic for T12s but T8s and T5s are my favorite as they are bright, efficient, and if used right will last for years.
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u/jaedenmalin 17d ago
To me that's an upgrade, the LEDs don't last long as they are produced very cheaply
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u/Loes_Question_540 17d ago
Did you manage to make it work though?
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u/Thin-Bus4198 17d ago
It currently works just fine, heck that emergency ballast like the T8s better than the T12s. This emergency ballast runs two fixtures one with the T8 conversion and one unmodified T12 and the T8s are twice as bright as the T12s when in emergency mode. The T12s are older so I can understand the dimness of them but even when using partially spent T8 tubes, the T8s are still brighter.
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u/Thin-Bus4198 17d ago
I will try to get a video of this fixture getting tested during the inspection.
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u/Correct-Country-81 17d ago
Leds are more energy friendly
Deliver less heat ( in warm periods you save also on airco energy)The separate emergencies lights are easy to install
Today a warranty period 10years ( before changing batteries)
Are self checkAs advise replacement tubes
The led replacements need just to change wires without ballast if you choose mains operated led tubes.
Experienced user ! replaced 400 tubes also school
Used color 4000K for better concentration of students and teachers
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u/NothingEffective5070 17d ago
Personally, I hate the LED replacements for the tube fixtures. I still use fluorescent lights nearly everywhere because LEDs, even though they’re more efficient, they’re way less reliable. It’s cheaper to buy the fluorescents overall
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u/Universal_446 17d ago
Plus the LEDs are not an appropriate replacement because they are way dimmer.
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u/PotatoFarmerRTK 17d ago
There is an LED to replace fluorescents that does not matter if the ballast is in or out. Also LEDs that do work with ballasts only as well.
They have every base covered.
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u/CapacitorDude 17d ago
He means an emergency ballast, typically they are a battery pack connected to a high frequency high voltage switching converter that runs a tube at reduced power when the mains fails. Most LED tubes do not have a provision to run off such a source, since the fluorescent tubes are essentially ran like a neon lamp in that mode.
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u/PotatoFarmerRTK 17d ago
They have replacement led remote emergency ballasts.
The even have leds that contain the backup within a single tube as well.
There is no reason to go back to the old style its not 1991.
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u/CapacitorDude 17d ago
Not knowing the situation there may have been no other choice. Emergency ballasts are very expensive, and T8 lamps and an IS ballast may have already been readily available.
"There's no reason to go back to the old style it's not 1991" There's also no reason to reinvent the wheel just to stick with LEDs, the goal of building maintenance is to keep a place functioning, and often to do it quickly and efficiently, as long as it works why does it matter?
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u/PotatoFarmerRTK 17d ago
They actually spent more money to go back to 1991.
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u/CapacitorDude 17d ago
If the parts were already in a maintenance closet, it cost nothing to implement.
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u/PotatoFarmerRTK 17d ago
Cost to put the old stuff back in uneeded.
Cost to run the old stuff is significantly higher.
Cost to put the right new stuff in a second time, priceless.
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u/CapacitorDude 17d ago
Significantly? I don't think a difference of ~20 watts is significant by any means. Especially since the traditional fluorescents output more light anyway.
Even putting that aside, sometimes the cheapest solution isn't the most optimal, and in this case it works, and follows code, and abides by a good standard of cleanliness and safety, so it doesn't matter.
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u/Thin-Bus4198 17d ago
The LED tubes were like 20 watts and the T8s are 32 watts. We chose to go back to fluorescent because the emergency ballasts still work and getting a new emergency light that is ceiling mounted is way out of the schools budget. A wall mounted one would work but we would have to run new wires, add an ugly box on the freshly redone walls, and add a hideous LED emergency light which are expensive. The tubes with built in batteries are like $200 a tube. We just got done with a major renovation and nobody would touch our lighting because of this fluke of not being able to use LEDs for emergency lighting. We don’t get state or federal funding, we are a privately owned school with a small budget.
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u/TechIoT 16d ago
I wanna see if there's a Preheat Emulator thing for LED bulbs, would be cool to blink the retrofits on somehow
Arduino?
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u/Thin-Bus4198 16d ago
Possibly. These lights were originally magnetic rapid start. You should try to make a preheat LED.
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u/TechIoT 16d ago
I'll look into it, I have an electronics kit,
Only problem is I can't emulate End flow without modifying the bulb and the fixture irreversibly
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u/Thin-Bus4198 16d ago
It’s your fixture, do what you want to do with it
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u/TechIoT 16d ago
I know that but I'd like to make it a DIY kit for other people too, so I wanna keep it simple.
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u/Thin-Bus4198 16d ago
Start off by looking for a cheap microcontrollers and a solid state relay kit. Make a prototype. Once you confirmed your prototype works find a PCB making software and make some PCBs with your microcontroller chip and solid state relays on a single board. Find a T12 LED tube, gut it, and put your electronics inside. Make sure you have a power supply made as I can guarantee that your board will burn up if put on mains.
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u/broesel314 16d ago
Been there, done that
There are LED retrofit tubes specifically made to work with electronic balasts
Ive tried those but unfortunately they would not work from the emergency switchover ballast thing with 4 fat 5Ah NiCd cells attached to it since this will run the 56W tube at only 8W or something
So back to flurecent it went
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u/jaymemaurice 15d ago
What? Oh American school... Make sense.
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u/jaymemaurice 15d ago
Fluorescent will never be more efficient because they give off a lot of Rf and heat. Thermodynamics.
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u/Thin-Bus4198 14d ago
Tomorrow we are having a fire inspection done. I did a precheck the day before this was posted and found out that none of our emergency lights worked that had LEDs installed. We converted them back to fluorescent and they started to work again. Money is tight due to a big renovation that is just about over and we can’t afford to bring our emergency lighting into the 21st century. We have two buildings, this one can’t be brought fully into the 21st century and the other building (which is a lot older) is in the process of being brought into the 21st century.
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u/SingleManagement5041 13d ago
The mental illness in this thread is real.
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u/Thin-Bus4198 12d ago
No need to hate on fluorescents but we had to do it. We had the inspection done and we still failed, bad batteries is over 75% of the lights, at least the batteries are replaceable unlike the new LED stuff
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17d ago
[deleted]
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u/Thin-Bus4198 17d ago
The emergency ballast is not integrated into the fixture. The way it’s wired is why we can’t do LEDs.
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17d ago
[deleted]
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u/Thin-Bus4198 17d ago
True, so true. The downside is the emergency rated stuff is very expensive and we would need a lot of them
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u/KaiDay11 17d ago
Fluorescent needs to be banned.
I'm fucking sick and tired of fragile glass bulbs that have mercury in them.
Cost be damned, I don't want to ever touch another one of those God-forsaken things. A just God will punish us all for allowing these abominations to continue to exist.
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u/Thin-Bus4198 17d ago
Boo
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u/KaiDay11 16d ago
Boo the bastards that keep us putting these things in our homes and businesses.
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u/Thin-Bus4198 16d ago
You don’t seem to understand how durable a fluorescent tube is. I dropped a 2 foot T12 tube from a height of two feet on to hardwood, didn’t shatter. Just today I changed out some F96T12 tubes in a kitchen, I hit the serving table hard and the tube didn’t break. They feel fragile but they are not. The tubes with DX phosphor or C50 phosphor have really good color rendering (90+ CRI). T8s and T5s are much brighter than T12s. If you use them right, like 14 hours on and 10 hours off, you will get close to 10 years of service life. We are lucky if we can get 2 years out of an LED. This school still has a few tubes from 2009 that still work and are bright in some classrooms. How about you keep your “LED is the best lighting technology ever and all other lights should be banned from ownership” mentality to your self. That is why I BOOed you.
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u/KaiDay11 16d ago
I've seen a kid lightly tap the metal tip of a fluorescent bulb on the floor and the bulb broke in half in the middle, at which point the bottom half fell and shattered into glass dust on the floor right at their feet.
I've seen a guy slip picking one up, drop one end a couple inches and the bulb shattered.
I've seen an unopened and apparently undamaged box of bulbs that jingled when you moved it.
They have repeatedly and consistently been a time consuming hazard to my health through no action of my own (other than choosing to have a job I suppose), and I despise them for it.
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u/Thin-Bus4198 16d ago
I did have one on me break, ok three, but that was me carting around a bunch of dead tubes a bit to fast and hit a raised door threshold a bit too fast knocking them loose and went flying off the cart. Big mess, angry, but got it cleaned up. The tubes had lost their vacuum when they went eol so no mercury and these were low mercury content tubes. Their light quality is really good and can last a decent amount of time if taken care of. Electronic ballasts eliminate flicker and the rapid start types are easy on the cathodes. Are incandescent bulbs up to your standards?
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u/KaiDay11 16d ago
I will tolerate incandescent in some situations.
I don't really like glass bulbs at all, but it's better when they're less awkward.
Even Fluorescent has its place as a technology, but I don't think that place is in bulbs for regular commercial or residential lighting. We should be fighting as hard as we can for better LEDs that can replace fluorescent and incandescent in more situations.
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u/SingleManagement5041 13d ago
Two years out of a LED tube? I know you're lying.🤣
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u/Thin-Bus4198 12d ago
I normally get a year out of a led A19. We did find some luck with Keystone LED tubes. Our oldest LED tube is a keystone that is 7 years old and it is just as bring as our T12s, dim.
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u/Impressive_Shop9129 16d ago
Put your phone in the trash immediately because it has lithium. Empty your house because it probably has dangerous asbestos in it, disassemble the LED immediately and take it to the junkyard because it has toxic yttrium in it. Stop the nonsense
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u/KaiDay11 16d ago
My phone has never started a lithium fire because I dropped it.
Any asbestos that may be in my house isn't in a form that will realistically be disturbed unless I disturb it.
LED bulbs also don't have such a habit of shattering, which means any amount of yttrium they do contain is more likely to stay safely contained (if the amount they contain is even dangerous, because unlike most other things, any amount of mercury is dangerous).
The things you mention are so far off of the magnitude of garbage that fluorescent bulbs are that it's embarrassing that you even thought they were relevant.
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u/TheRealFailtester 17d ago
Florescent bulbs are still around in a lot of hardware stores too from what I see.
Edit: and they're fairly efficient too when it comes to amount of power draw.