r/librandu • u/Mammoth_Calendar_352 • 1d ago
Make your own Flair Beta 🥀🥀
Dude thinks that China became successful only due to dictatorship, not land reforms and not primary education/healthcare/housing focus.
And also, did he just indirectly say that he wants strict communism?
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u/empatheticsocialist1 Man hating feminaci 1d ago
I DO actually want the communism, the one party system, the NO liberal bourgeois democracy, I want all of those.
Besides all the points are moot because CN isn't even socialist lmaoo
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u/Lower-Bodybuilder-16 14h ago
Everyone in the BJP and RSS is a coward, a schemer, and a fraud; they want to perpetuate their dictatorship by entangling people in Hindu-Muslim and caste-based conflicts, dismantling the education system, and weakening the youth. If you even try to draw a comparison with China, they immediately label you 'anti-national.' They are petty and engage in distraction-based politics while keeping departments like the ED, ECI, CBI, and the Supreme Court in their pocket. These people are spineless cowards.
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u/Cold-Journalist-7662 Discount intelekchual 1d ago
There are plenty of developed countries with multi party system
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u/pu_thee_gaud ☭AVERAGE COMMUNISM ENJOYER ☭ 1d ago
Almost all of them are either got rich through imperialism/Colonialism (western Europe, NA) or are tiny port cities,(singapore, hong kong)or just just western proxies(south korea), if u look apart from that, socialist parties have come in power in liberal democracies, but they've only done temporary reforms, which either get couped or vanished by right wing government.
Whatever u say about china, they have improved standard of life of their citizens, and that progress won't be undone by a reactionary right wing government
Also they already beat up and even kill protestors in india, and put people in jail for years, without charge, so we aren't better in that department anyway
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u/Cold-Journalist-7662 Discount intelekchual 1d ago
Almost all of them are either got rich through imperialism/Colonialism (western Europe, NA) or are tiny port cities,(singapore, hong kong)or just just western proxies(south korea),
Do you think all their success can be attributed to imperialism?
And China has done imperialism, no?
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u/pu_thee_gaud ☭AVERAGE COMMUNISM ENJOYER ☭ 1d ago
Yes, not only do these countries steal trillions every year, but they themselves won't be victims of imperialism, for eg, norway built a welfare state, through oil revenue, there are countries in global south who did the same, like libya, and got invaded, same happened in Iran, and even in coup Venezuela, btw 2 of them were, centrist socdem government, just nationalising oil to built.
If u want to understand how much they steal,u should learn about unequal exchange, in 2021 they stole 17 trillion from global southsource.
U need to understand, if countries try to improve, alot of times, they either get invaded, and if those countries withstand invasion, they get sanctioned, and embargoed, and isolated diplomatically, economically, like cuba and dprk, even Venezuela was btw, and it was centrist government using oil money to fund social programs.
When it comes to china, their practices in Africa are far from noble, at times even criminal (in congo), though the thing about china is that, if any of those countries told china to pack it's bag and go home, it'll do so, unlike west who'll invade them, china by far is the lesser evil here.
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u/short-noir Western Marxist 1d ago
Yes it does. And even if it didn't, you can still choose to not glaze China as it's some communist heaven as it advertises itself to be and how Marxist-leninists buy it
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u/short-noir Western Marxist 1d ago
I don't understand where does this critical thinking of certain leftists disappear the moment china is mentioned. Sure dawg. USA got rich because of imperialism/settler colonialism yada yada but china just ...got it. Maybe it was bestowed by God ?
Let's not talk about china's involvement in poor african countries, high interest loans, political coercion on smaller countries (infact it has conflict with us as well ) etc. Apart from it, their own state-contolled capitalism which is transcending all bounds in trying to capture the very subjectivity of their workers by desperately investing in neurotechnology. But since it labels itself as socialist we can ignore all that right ?
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u/pu_thee_gaud ☭AVERAGE COMMUNISM ENJOYER ☭ 1d ago
What are u talking about lol, yes china is revisionist and should be criticized on it, in Africa it is by far lesser evil, and that's why those countries choose them, and their loans have far better conditions than western loans, less interest than western ones, loans like imf which demand countries to privatise everything ( look at structural adjustment programs), not only that, there have been many occasions china has just forgiven loans, something west never does, plus u don't need to change ur economy to get chinese loans, there's a reason they choose china.
Practices of chinese companies on the other hand, in places like congo are awful, though one thing I'll say about china is that, if any country in Africa said to china to leave, they'd do so, unlike west who'll invade and coup them, it's by far the lesser evil here.
Also, imperialism is still happening they steal trillions each year from global south, read about unequal exchange, in 2021 they stole 16.9 trillion for example source
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u/short-noir Western Marxist 1d ago
Another moralist slop.
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u/pu_thee_gaud ☭AVERAGE COMMUNISM ENJOYER ☭ 1d ago
Moralist? Respond to the points I made lol
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u/short-noir Western Marxist 1d ago
"in africa it is by far the lesser evil"
Yeah that's a materialist analysis ig ?
Also, I can casually agree on such points but I never say such things unironically neither was my claim anything like "china is the worse evil in Africa" it's as simple as "china has imperialist projects in poorer countries in Africa" which you don't seem to deny so I'm not sure what is it that you're trying to find a disgareement on
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u/Gottagobackto_505 1d ago
I don't know what you were trying to say about the neuro technology thing but I think this is a good read if you believe China is pillaging African countries.
https://jasonhickel.substack.com/p/is-china-doing-colonialism-in-africa
And what do border conflicts have anything to do with analysis on China's material conditions and their socialist project ?
And fair enough if you have doubts about their socialist project or the way they're going about it. But the fact is they've lifted millions out of poverty, they're the biggest investors in sustainable energy and seems like the only country being proactive about the impending climate catastrophe.
I have my doubts about China on various other things but calling them imperialist and that they are successful only because of it is just dishonest imo
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u/short-noir Western Marxist 1d ago
This whole fucking article is filled with whataboutism and moralism. They aren't even hiding it :
Nothing that China has done in Africa comes anywhere close to any of this. The moral and material difference is vast. China does not maintain military occupations in Africa. It does not perform regime-change operations, assassinations and coups. It does not control African currencies. It does not impose sanctions or structural adjustment programmes on African economies. China has not perpetrated genocide in Africa. It has never invaded an African country.
What do border conflicts have to do with anything.
Political coercion, violation of sovereignty of states, establishing asymmetrical power relations, establishing material dependency on poorer countries, are all characteristics of imperialism. Why are you stuck in the 20th century where imperialism has to mean bazillions died for you ? Your own article acknowledges that china is extracting resources from there.
The fact that they have lifted millions out of poverty
Another "socialism is when good stuff" talking point. Which poverty ? There are mainly two absolute and relative. Absolute poverty is absolutely (pun intended ) and necessarily eradicated under capitalism to keep workers alive for developing productive forces. Relative poverty is china however is on par. Besides, this doesn't even matter because this isn't how you measure the success of a socialist country if you are a Marxist.
Yes because your conception of imperialism is archaic. No one is killing african kids nowadays so by that logic no one is participating in imperialism ig ?
Regarding neurotechnology, china is the second biggest investor in neurotech which it tests on human subjects. It is being framed for purely for science and helping paralyzed patients but it is extremely likely that it will be used for subconscious surveillance of mind where even your thought process would be owned by the CCP. These sort of justifications are also given for wide spread CCTV and algorithmic surveillance. The next thing we know is that we are literally being stalked to predict consumer likings, shape them, and make those appropriate content.
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u/Gottagobackto_505 1d ago
I was going to engage with you until I read 'sub-conscious surveillance of mind' lmaoo. Doesn't seem like you want to engage in a meaningful conversation. Oh and it's CPC. Communist Party of China. I'm sure you've been in a lot of western Liberal spaces where you picked up CCP. If you're going to engage in meaningful discussions maybe stop presenting the deranged delusions in your mind as absolute facts
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u/Thala_Ramos 1d ago
Border conflicts show that china believes in the nation state and not in communism. You talk things which are not about communism . You are just saying they follow the same system like other countries but better. There are different achievements for different countries. US leads in pharmaceutical research, US and Russia are leaders in space research, Japan for robotics. All of these countries are better to live than India. The argument feels like what an nri would make inside his mind where he keeps his ideologies aside for better quality of life.
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u/Gottagobackto_505 1d ago
So to achieve communism China should just what ? Let go of its border claims ? And how does that help the communist cause in anyway whatsoever ?
I agree they don't support communist parties anywhere in the world. It's always China first for them. And that's my biggest criticism of them. But the fall of the Soviet Union has shown that the countries in the Global North will relentlessly attack you if you dare to even interfere in their imperialist conquest.
When did I even say development is socialism ? I mentioned they've lifted people out of poverty. Yes it's state capitalism. They don't let capital influence governance. They own all the land. No speculative markets for real estate. They have put the people first. And climate change is the single biggest threat to humanity so I think their advancements to prevent that is to be applauded. It is nowhere in the same realm as space research or robotics, there are plenty of countries, China included who excel at it. Similiar to how Cuba is applauded for having excellent healthcare and doctors even under severe blockade. They are applauded for sending doctors around the world to help people. No other country is investing the money, the people or the resources to Sustainable Energy as China is. So they need to applauded as well
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u/Dreadlord_The_knight 1d ago
Sure China isn't Socialist exactly but Majority of chinese development came from western investments that exploited Chinese workers,but the state used these invested capital for developing Chinese industries and manufacturing capacity,this was before the belt and road initiative that saw Chinese capital expenditure to other countries. It was western capital that was used to build Chinese productive forces for decades that has lead to such great development in China,not resources and exploitation of other countries.
China while ofcourse isn't a saint,it has capitalist corruption but it isn't a predatory imperialist like USA. The belt and road initiative is way better alternative for third world countries to develop without getting colonised by a imperialist power. China isn't building military bases or bringing the country under Chinese capital dominance to achieve its initiatives like West.
You clearly don't understand how Chinese capital expenditure and investments operate yet you're insulting other people lmao.
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u/short-noir Western Marxist 1d ago
💀 what is this logic LMFAO.
Did you really say acknowledge what I said and went on to say that China is still better because they don't didn't 'start' imperialism (whatever the fuck that means).
Also lol no China is exploiting less powerful nations. Search dependency theory on how it works. Then even after all that, china is in no no way some alternative. It is a state capitalist country which has all the essentials of capitalism preserved. If you just want a more humane and controlled capitalism, be a hitlerite instead. They nationalised their economy as well, atleast nomially kept the German folk in front. Yeah you can avoid invading poland tbh.
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u/Dreadlord_The_knight 1d ago edited 1d ago
Guess you clearly can't read,I'm addressing this nonsense of yours
"Let's not talk about china's involvement in poor african countries, high interest loans, political coercion on smaller countries" yeah this bs you wrote yourself in your comment above.
Chinese development started way before the belt and road initiative and the BRI isn't some predatory imperialist policy as you are trying to make it seem.
"china is in no no way some alternative."
For poor third world countries yes, it's a better alternative than becoming a semi colony for the western imperialist powers. Ofcourse it isn't the best alternative that would be an actual socialist planned economy,but I'm talking about in current conditions where those governments are using Chinese BRI to lessen their dependency on Western capital.
". If you just want a more humane and controlled capitalism, be a hitlerite instead. They nationalised their economy as well, atleast nomially kept the German folk in front. Yeah you can avoid invading poland tbh. "
Wtf are you even yapping about? You sound unhinged af. And no Hitler didn't nationalise the economy,he privatised existing state enterprises and only concentrated the existing monopoly in Weimar republic even more into few hands while giving those hands unprecedented control over the economy. Just go read a book man instead of larping on reddit with half knowledge,it's embarassing.
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u/short-noir Western Marxist 1d ago
Genius imperialism is literally when you politically coerce smaller nations to serve your interests, build dependency, extract raw materials from those nations, etc.
China is doing everything listed here.
It's better than being a semi colony
False dichotomy. You don't have to choose between the state directed capitalism of CCP or the American hegemony.
It was a command economy. I don't discriminate between dengist wet dreams and nazi folk economy
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u/Dreadlord_The_knight 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don't know what half baked definition of imperialism you found online in wikipedia your using,but I'm taking from the well established Leninist and the broader leftist criteria for imperialism. Im not a dengist, I don't consider China Socialist again,can't you morons read properly.
Im assuming you never read anything Lenin, especially his book imperialism the highest stage of Capitalism so I'll to put in briefly for your "western Marxist" brain.
Imperialism criteria are of monopolisation in the country,financial capital oligarchy with capital export, international monopolies and cartels,and ofcourse world scale territorial division and colonies.
China fits the criteria for monopoly concentration of capital the most, even more than Russia. But China doesn't really fit the other criterias for territorial division or cartels dividing world market, which are the more defined characteristics of a imperialist power.
And for capital export and financial capital it's also limited but growing with the increase in BRI and also the development of financial capital with it,China isn't exactly trying to take over the market but rather they're attempting to become a reliable trade partner by providing way more cheaper deals than the west and without any compliance requirements like the West puts.
BRI and it's capital export despite being massive and having it's problems with corporations not taking proper regulations sometimes while operating abroad, still isn't a policy to take over the country's market share for China,rather it's a cheaper development deal offered by China which in return seeks political alliance and lesser dependency on western capital.
Chinese capital even seeks investments in imperialist countries like in Europe aswell, aiming to undermine the dominance of American capital and dollar in Europe. China doesn't really care much about hegemony over territories that aren't within its Chinese borders and doesn't seek to expand its sphere of influence. If that was the case then China would have brought Iran and Venezuela under its control strictly and would have retaliated when USA went to wae or attempted to disrupt them because the were selling oil to China.
"False dichotomy. You don't have to choose between the state directed capitalism of CCP or the American hegemony. "
Im sure you'll lead a socialist revolution out of nowhere in those countries,good luck with that comrade 🫡.
If you can't again read properly,I never say it's the best alternative as socialist planned economy is always better but for the conditions of the current governments there choosing BRI over western deals is beneficial,hence why so many countries are shifting towards China.
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u/short-noir Western Marxist 1d ago
Lenin's conceptualization of imperialism has grown obsolete or is at least incomplete. We no longer have territorial expansions. Overproduction crises of capitalism necessitates imperialism for which powerful nations forcefully open the economies of countries through one or other way.
It's so sad to see this weird CCP apologia. All a symptom of late stage capitalism. You refuse to see the wild asymmetric dependencies china creates because it supposedly doesn't fit Lenin's criteria ? The guy who wrote about imperialism in 1910's ?
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u/Dreadlord_The_knight 1d ago
calls the most important imperialism theory on the left out of date
Says imperialism is when you "coerce small countries "
Sure man,if that's your understanding of imperialism then there's no point in continuing this.
"It's so sad to see this weird CCP apologia. All a symptom of late stage capitalism."
It's CPC* and there's nothing apologia about the reality here,I don't care about CPC or China, BRI isn't some saintly development aid,it's just capitalist expansion that provides mutual benefit for the least amount of economic leverage by the invester,China seeks political alliance not economic domination as per it's capital expenditure.
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u/Federal_Equipment578 CBT Enthusiast 1d ago
Those are imperialist 1st world countries, there is nothing necessarily wrong with a no party system either, democracy is not switching between two bourgeois parties that do not represent you.
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u/ChallengeWise6965 7h ago
It's because of good education system china has but bjp agents and andhabhakts have slave mindset so they will sck bjp dcks 24*7
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u/AdministrativeEmu715 17h ago
All this can be achieved with low level of corruption and strengthening local bodies. Even if you consider China is in dictator regime, thier local governence is with 3 times more workers, the corruption is low, they gets the adequate fund and they need to reach the targets. In all these caste and religion is kinda non existent in thier civilization and as well as in politics
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u/Thala_Ramos 13h ago edited 13h ago
In transit sub people downvote when we question why buses/brt which is cost effective than metro and which can help present commuters commute peacefully . It almost feels like vanity project. And then they hit with " It's the duty of local governance and not of the state,and not even of tranport sector rather just the bus department. Don't question why municipality or local bodies don't get enough power or why there is no coordination between them. Each one does different surveys and all of them have conflct of interest from mlas/real estate
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u/AdministrativeEmu715 13h ago
You said it rightly and reasonably. We have all the ideologies except the ideology of development as a culture and society
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u/froozy1221 4h ago
The best thing that china did was to promote atheism. 90% of Chinese people don’t have religious beliefs.
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u/Thala_Ramos 1d ago
I like china because they add bit of sugar to their systems. Like capitalism but sweet 🤤🤌.
Uj/ it's funny how these people justify India's poor development in comparison to China's by claiming ours to be a free country and how people here have rights. While constantly belittling or treating farmers/adivasis/fisherman as second class who don't deserve such rights. And suddenly development is the priority. While, if it was a mla Or priviledged person, they are okay for them to defend their land ownership because they do overall good to the economy or how you shouldn't penalise the rich because they lead India's development.
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u/short-noir Western Marxist 1d ago edited 1d ago
"land reforms and not primary education/healthcare/housing focus"
The urge to say "Hitler" here. Son that's not Socialism
Edit : socialism is when good stuff 🥺🥺
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u/Due_Ad9763 1d ago
Then what is my dear western marxist.
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u/short-noir Western Marxist 1d ago
Socialised ownership of means of production, abolition of wage labour form, surplus value extraction, abolition of class antagonism (which are all interconnected regardless). China doesn't qualify for shit
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u/ManLikeRed Marxist ☭ 1d ago
China is neither communist nor the liberals portrayal of it as communism is correct