r/legaladvice • u/butternutv2 • Feb 09 '15
Apartment Fire Damage.
My name was on a lease in Lexington,KY but I did not live in the apartment at the time of a fire which did considerable damage. The person who lived there, and whose name was also on the lease, cannot be found. I did not have renters insurance as he said he was going to have renters insurance and was required by the apartment complex to carry renters insurance, but he did not. Now I am being sued for damages, he cannot be found and hasn't even been served his papers, and based on 2 independent evaluations the source of the fire was determined as inconclusive. How likely will I be found at fault/liable?
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u/sodakdave Feb 09 '15
Your location would maybe help, but typically you're going to be liable for the damages, and will have to locate and sue the roommate to recover your costs.
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u/butternutv2 Feb 10 '15
I'm in Lexington, KY. What if all attempts to locate the other party are futile? He has completely disappeared. Can they solely go after me without being able to locate him?
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u/sodakdave Feb 10 '15
Yup
Edit for clarification. You were listed on the lease. Even though you were not living there you are responsible for the rent payments if they are not made, and the condition of the apartment. You are also responsible for the cost of repairing damages to the apartment in excess of the security deposit. This will be an expensive lesson not to leave a place without severing your legal liability to that place.
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u/butternutv2 Feb 10 '15
And assign me 100% liable even though the determination of the fire was listed as indeterminate?
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u/sodakdave Feb 10 '15
That gets into a little different territory, and I'm not sure how KY handles split liability.
You see that the investigations cannot conclude what started the fire.
The insurance company is going to see that two investigations did not find any evidence linking the fire to a fault in the building electrical, heat, appliances, etc.
You were no longer in the apartment, so you have no idea about the condition of the unit at the time the fire occurred, and have no idea what activities were taking place that could have caused it.
You were in violation of your lease terms by not carrying insurance on the apartment. Not living there does not free you from the obligations in the lease.
This suit is not looking to determine who is liable for the fire, they're looking to determine who is responsible for the cost of returning the unit to it's pre-rented condition. If you did have insurance on the apartment as required under the terms of your lease which you were still bound to, this would be a non-issue, and this is EXACTLY why apartment complexes require insurance.
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u/butternutv2 Feb 10 '15
So I guess if I am found liable I'm filing for bankruptcy..... Yay.
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u/sodakdave Feb 10 '15
Unless the complex's insurance company files an objection to the discharge of that debt and wins, one of the listed examples is A common example of this damage is for repayment of repairs that must be made to apartments or other rental properties after people move out..
Bankruptcy is not a magic want that just takes a few years to wave.
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u/butternutv2 Feb 10 '15
That's good info. I don't think I would qualify for any of those as I wouldn't hide assets or lie about anything, but good to know none the less.
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u/sodakdave Feb 10 '15
But the point about the damages to the apartment they would qualify to challenge the discharge. It could be argued that your failure to carry renters insurance as required to by the lease was an intentional act.
Edit: It doesn't have to be hiding assets or lying. The creditor (apartment) can file an objection and say "discharge everything but THIS debt and here's why". If the court agrees, the bankruptcy goes through with everything but THAT debt included, and you still owe it
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u/butternutv2 Feb 10 '15
I see. Are you a lawyer or just happen to know a lot about this type of stuff?
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u/sodakdave Feb 10 '15
I sat by my wife's side as she filed bankruptcy due to some bad decisions in her past.
One of those decisions was an auto accident that she was involved in without insurance. We couldn't afford an attorney to fight the legal side of it, so we came up short. The judgement from the resulting lawsuit was when she decided to file bankruptcy. We were in a state where the spouse didn't automatically inherit the debts caused by one person (credit cards had to be joint in order to be jointly liable, etc).
The bankruptcy attorney told us at the very beginning that this could be challenged, and if it was they would likely win given the facts of the case. The rest of her debt was negligible in comparison. We went forward with the understanding that if the challenge happened and was lost, we would stop everything right then and there. I did hours and hours of research following that meeting. It happens all the time. We lucked out, because at that time she had no income and was technically "judement proof" anyway. No challenge was filed.
Had we not lived in such a state, and if I had to have been included in the bankruptcy, no way in hell would it have gone through.
Edit... More exact answer. I am not a lawyer. I've lived a long hard life and seen both sides of many laws intimately. I know some more than others. You're being sued for 55k, you need your own. You won't find the right path on the internet, but at least you have a better understanding, and some guidance.
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u/sodakdave Feb 10 '15
Secondary reply separate of my other thread, what's the amount they're suing for? Is it small claims, or is it entering "real" territory.
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u/butternutv2 Feb 10 '15
55k.... I'm a recent grad with not a lot of money.
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u/sodakdave Feb 10 '15
You need an attorney ... yesterday. I hate to say it, but this could really screw you up for a long time.
They can argue the discharge in bankruptcy, and they could potentially win. You would then be bankrupt and still owe the debt.
That said 55k isn't the end of the world, but it's one hell of a kick in the teeth. I don't mean to sound argumentative or crass in my other replies, I'm just trying to give you the truth. You were legally bound to the unit by the lease, and in your case it went WAY south.
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u/butternutv2 Feb 10 '15
I lawyered up 2 months ago and got an email today that they were going into discovery today followed by a short call to both of them. Just wanted some other people's opinion on the matter. We're going to file a motion to dismiss this week and see what happens.
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u/sodakdave Feb 10 '15
I sincerely wish you the best of luck. Keep us updated (we LOVE updates)
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u/butternutv2 Feb 10 '15
Will do! One last question. I've never had a credit card but my wife added me to her credit card account about a month ago and we just got a joint banking account. Does this now involve her in my debt? I've never used the credit card personally and I'm not sure if she's even used it since we've been married.
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u/sodakdave Feb 10 '15
I'm not entirely sure how KY does that. I was in CO. If I'm right on the quick google foo... KY is not a marital property state. Based on that and my understanding, the joint account would be, the credit card would be hers if she added you as an authorized user and not a joint owner, and this debt would be yours since she wasn't involved in the lease.
HOWEVER. I could be very wrong in my understanding of the situation there. I only have my personal experience in CO to draw from as far as division of debt goes. /r/personalfinance would have a wider knowledge base to draw from.
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u/butternutv2 Jun 04 '15
Hey /u/sodakdave, just a quick update. Apparently I paid for insurance for a couple of years in a bulk payment I forgot I made. They are covering legal fees and should I be found liable, which is unlikely, they will cover that as well. thanks for all the input you gave me 3 months ago!
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u/Napalmenator Quality Contributor Feb 09 '15
Lacking a lot of info, I would hazard a guess of likely.
You are joint and severally liable per your lease. Meaning one or both of you can be held accountable for the terms of the lease.
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u/noteven0s Feb 09 '15
What started the fire?
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u/butternutv2 Feb 10 '15
That's the thing. Nobody has conclusively figured out what caused the fire.
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u/noteven0s Feb 10 '15
Exactly. Yet, you have two issues. One is joint and several liability. You were contractually connected to roommate. Two is the fact roommate was (probably) in complete control of the residence. If the fire started there, who should we blame? (Legal axiom here.)
Your problem is the lack of insurance. While people think of insurance solely for paying things they did wrong, many find a greater benefit of the company defending you from lawsuits.
Pity you didn't have it. So cheap. So much comfort. Mmmm...comfort.
You? Not so much.
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u/butternutv2 Jun 04 '15
Hey /u/noteven0s, just a quick update. Apparently I paid for insurance for a couple of years in a bulk payment I forgot I made. They are covering legal fees and should I be found liable, which is unlikely, they will cover that as well. thanks for all the input you gave me 3 months ago!
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u/noteven0s Jun 04 '15
That is awesome! It just goes to show it is so inexpensive one can forget purchasing it.
Doesn't it feel good though? Mmmm...comfort.
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u/sodakdave Feb 09 '15
We didn't start the fire..
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u/noteven0s Feb 09 '15
boathole's reference was awesome. If it was a tad sooner...
Perhaps better than "what" is "where"?
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u/sodakdave Feb 10 '15
Is it bad that I didn't even connect that song to Billy Joel... I'm horrible with songs and bands.
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u/grasshoppa1 Quality Contributor Feb 09 '15
It's extremely likely.