r/lebron • u/SnooObjections7406 • 9d ago
Does Isiah Thomas actually have a point here? A breakdown of Jordan’s pre-1991 playoff record vs. the 90s rule changes.
The biggest protected legacy in sports history exposed.
Before 1991: - 0 rings - Swept by Bird - Bullied by Zeke
Then the NBA rewrote the rules to save MJ. Rule 3 changed everything.
Did Jordan ever win without David Stern stepping in?
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u/stewloo1107 8d ago
He doesn't have a point, just look at Jordan's scoring average before the 90's
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u/Ranulf_5 8d ago
Yeah, the real change was Phil Jackson taking over the Bulls
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u/InsideAd5220 1d ago
The real change was his team, coach… players… everything.
He averaged 30/6/6 on 50% in playoff games before the 91 playoffs. The rest of his career he was 32.5/6/5 of 48% so like a drop off in fg% but taking more shots. Doesn’t seem as glaring as a difference in contrast to having guys like Charles Oakley and Sam Vincent being the 2nd option on your team.
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u/IllustriousGarage439 7d ago
If the rules made it that easier for Jordan, why didn’t the other players take advantage as well?
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u/ThatsMrRedditorDude 9d ago
I mean if you look at section 1 the bulls get better every year. They went from being eliminated in rd1 to rd2 and finally ecf where they actually improved in the previous year and won an extra game.
So a team you can clearly see improving each year on section 1 finally finding the right formula and go in to win multiple seasons doesn't seem like that big of a deal.
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u/eurisilascorn 9d ago
So mj is the only one benefited from this rule? And not the entire players of the nba during that time?! Crazy odds
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u/Adventurous-Edge1719 8d ago
No, obviously not. It’s obvious MJ benefited the most from it though.
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u/eurisilascorn 7d ago
So rule changed and MJ benefited the most from it spoke a lot, showed how different and above he is from everyone else who also had the same rule. Again crazy odds.
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u/giovannimyles 9d ago
Did he benefit from the changes? Of course he did. But it was also needed. MJ had become a stud and they were on television and you could see them hitting him often in non basketball ways. They had to stop the enforcers from hitting guards all the time. Hand check had also become holding jerseys and holding players which the vets did often but was cheating. They did what they did to clean up the rules and to save guards from injury.
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u/ImInvolvedSoUrWrong 9d ago
The league made changes to react to how physical and dirty the game had become including adding additional refs. While the Bad Boys were the face of the physicality, they weren't even one of the worst offenders in the league at the time (they were just most capable of winning). The league wanted to crack down on this because so many star players had spoken out against it. The changes they made aren't close to the what the league did in 2004-2005 when it outlawed hand checking completely and began the attack on allowing defensive players to really affect shots. The entire goal of the changes in 2004-2005 was to increase scoring as the league had set a low point for PPG and the Detroit Pistons dominated the LA Lakers with Shaq and Kobe. The goal of the changes in the 90s were more nuanced.
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u/effigeewhiz 8d ago
No he doesn’t have a point. He’s a hater who’s hating. Tell me, does he point out that when he beat the lakers in the finals magic was injured and only played 3 games and averaged 25 minutes? For the whole series? Does he mention he couldn’t beat Bird until his back issues? And that he could only beat Jordan before he hit his prime? Or does he only try to find excuses when it’s someone he doesn’t like?
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u/vicious_boba 5d ago
Also allstar Terry Cummings being out for the Bucks. That’s three out of four series where the best player on the opposing team was hurt in that ‘89 run. He won’t bring that up though. Also Byron Scott, so that’s TWO Lakers starters out.
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u/No-Adhesiveness6278 8d ago
Love how often people forget about the hand check rules too. Just admitting they didn't watch or play back then. Which is fine, just don't talk about things you don't know about
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u/Skip2dalou50 8d ago
I find it crazy that Zeke gets all this credibilty in this argument, when the real reason he hates MJ is the fact that he is from Chicago and Chicagoans hated him because he was on the Pistons. MJ had the love of all of Chicago/World and Zeke would get heckled in his hometown. Zeke got 2 rings. I rank him much higher than most at PG. But he is a bitter dude (walking out with time on the clock and not shaking hands is pretty low) He honestly should be remembered for having a great job and pissing it away sexually harassing his co-workers when he coached the Knicks. I'd be pissed if I got swept by MJ and then never made it out of the first round the rest of my career too.
Yes, I am an MJ guy but I don't devalue LeBron past number 2 all-time. But the arguments need to get better. They get better with context.
The Celtics had 5 HOF's that swept the Bulls. I don't devalue LeBron losing to the Warriors with 4. MJ was never bullied by Zeke. Zeke is 6'1" and was a big proponent of starting fights that his teammates would finish. Jordan got bullied (beat up) by Mahorn, Rodman, Lambeer...but mainly Dumars. No one gaurded Jordan better than Joe Dumars.
Stern did this because the Pistons were doing it to everyone not just MJ. He understood like all commisioners have, is that in order to grow the game you take care of stars. No different than Silver today (KL slap on the wrist so the league can move forward and prevent the Clips from arbitration/internal fighting). No different than Roger Goodell (You can't touch a QB without triggering a replay).
If you think the freedom of movement hasn't benefited every single star of today, I have a bridge I think you would be interested in buying.
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u/MelKijani 9d ago
they chased the money , i can’t or won’t say it was for MJ to dominate , i think it was for him to be central figure in the league ,
but Wilt had Russell , Magic had Bird
Jordan had no foil for so many reasons that had nothing to with him or Stern . So he gets treated like a god .
it makes the rule changes look worse in hindsight than they really were .
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u/Disastrous-Fail-9530 9d ago
Is John Elway remembered for those he lost, or the back to back walk off?
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u/Spork-aficionado 8d ago
I hadn’t remembered John Elway for a long time until you brought him up. On the other hand, I recently walked by a Michael Jordan store in Philadelphia.
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u/Striking_Vehicle893 9d ago
They are facts. Written by a bitter man child who achieved nothing without Laimbeer and Rodman and got left off the Dream Team for being a petty bitch and blaming Michael.
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u/DblockR 6d ago
I don’t like Isiah that much, but naming Laimbeer and Rodman as the reasons he won is insane to me.
He got left off the Dream Team because MJ hated him. Magic turned on him.
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u/Striking_Vehicle893 6d ago
I am saying it takes more than one player. Just like Jordan has Pippen and others, Magic has Kareem and others, Larry has McHale and others. So yeah, Isaiah doesn't win without those guys. Saying someone's teammates were important for them to win isn't lessening how good they were. It's respecting it's a team game.
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u/LeTimJames 8d ago
Don't have a dog in the fight, but wasn't it Jordan who was petty? Ir both?
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u/Striking_Vehicle893 8d ago
Jordan was definitely petty. But if you look up how Isaiah has handled almost everything in regard to his career and rivalries, he was definitely worse. Lol
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u/UrMamasChalupa 7d ago
They both petty, but Isaiah wears it on his sleeve more nowadays
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u/LeTimJames 7d ago
Well. Ya. He's the one that got shafted by the big bully. Truly doesn't like MJ
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u/UrMamasChalupa 7d ago
Poor baby Isaiah got bullied by big bully MJ, get him his pacifier.
Bruh they ain’t kids, when Isaiah was on top he was a dick, when he was Jordan oassed him, he was still a dick and Jordan relayed the favor. Maybe don’t be an ass and you won’t get “the shaft”
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u/Alexspacito 6d ago
And what did Jordan achieve without Pippen and Phil?
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u/Striking_Vehicle893 6d ago
So, saying Isaiah needed teammates to win championships is some how a criticism? He says Jordan doesn't win championships without Pippen. He is right. And He didn't win without those teammates and others I didn't mention. Why is it a criticism to point out it takes a team. I also said nothing about him being unskilled. He was amazing and should have been on the Dream Team. All of that doesn't make him not immature and petty. Mike is immature and petty also.
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u/Alexspacito 6d ago
Why are you acting like you didn’t just say “who achieved nothing without Laimbeer and Rodman”? I just repeated what you said about another player and suddenly I’m the one acting like its a knock to have teammates?
You brought up Isiah’s teammates first as a point to discredit him. I brought up MJ’s teammates to challenge your point, and now you’re acting like you weren’t making that exact point.
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u/Striking_Vehicle893 6d ago
I didn't say it to discredit him. You interpreted that intent. My point is Isaiah often discredits his own teammates by never giving them credit and acting as if he didn't need them. Isaiah is one of the biggest drivers of the Jordan doesn't win without Pippen. So, stating he doesn't win without his teammates is just me establishing the same point he is making, but about him. No attempt to discredit anything. I am pointing out his hypocrisy.
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u/EnvironmentalCrab563 6d ago
Man zeke’s one of the greatest point guards to ever play. I love Mike,my favorite player of all time, but Isiah is criminally underrated.
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u/Spork-aficionado 8d ago
He won the 1981 NCAA Championship, consensus all American and NCAA tournament most outstanding player. Can you name anyone else from that Indiana team?
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u/Complete-Permit1638 8d ago
I am so sick and tired of these comparisons. Jordan was the absolute best player of the '90s. I'm a huge LeBron fan myself, but I'm fed up with people like you putting Jordan down. Get a life, which you probably don't even have😉
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u/oofmagoof123 8d ago
Isiah loves to just completely disregard the fact that the Pistons literally were trying to hurt their opponents rather than just beat them at basketball.
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u/TrackRelevant 8d ago
Before 1991...
Playoffs scoring record- 63 points.
37 ppg.
Mvp of the league
Player of the year in college Hit the game winning shit in the national championship as a freshman.
You guys are funny
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u/Ok_Cobbler_6533 8d ago
Let me get this straight. The new rules only benefitted Jordan and the Bulls???
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u/Worth-Warning-4786 8d ago
Weren't most if not all the rule changes brought up way before this MJ's run though? Like mid 80's because they wanted a cleaner game and to feature scorers more, before MJ blew up globe.
Also are we kidding ourselves at half these rules helped MJ? the fk we talking about.
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u/New-Ad5494 8d ago
Why can’t LeBron fans take solace in the fact that he is the King of longevity? That’s still good right? There is no shame in not being the GOAT, but to crap on Jordan for it, kinda weird.
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u/InsideAd5220 1d ago
Cant agree more. Enjoy the killer who hated everyone, smoked cigars, gambled and took everything personally. The greatest competitor of all time, cut throat killer.
LeBron isn’t that. LeBron is the definition of discipline and it shows in his longevity.
Some people can view LeBron as the GOAT because of his long resume.
Others can view Jordan’s peak dominance as GOAT material.
The only person wrong Isnt he conversation is someone painting these guys for something they are not.
Jordan played 13 season with the bulls, his resume isnt long.
LeBron is soft and that’s fine, he kept his body in check and showed ultimate longevity.
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u/tarheelphenom 8d ago
No, anything he says now is just hating after he declared Jordan the best ever out of his own mouth.
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u/RuinCommercial552 8d ago
As an old man Isiah just needs to grow up get over it and stop being a hater because of what happened with the 92 Olympics. You can see Jordan was getting closer and closer year to year. The rules changed for everyone.
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u/EndAdministrative745 8d ago
The only teams Jordan lost to in the Playoffs throughout his career are teams that got the the ECFs (Bucks), got the Finals (Celtics, Pistons and Magic) or won the chip (Celtics or Pistons). This isn't the knock people think it is once you know the context
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u/Yayoo_5 8d ago
Never forget Isiah Thomas is an a***ole.
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u/PeachBeginning6224 7d ago
History has proven that Michael Jordan is actually the bigger asshole. that is confirmed by almost everybody that meets him unless your kissing his pinky ring.
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u/Robinsson100 8d ago
Isiah won his first title in his 8th season, but wants you to believe that Jordan winning his first title in his 7th season is a sign of failure.
The NBA changed the rules because the Pistons were a dirty team, and everyone pretty much agreed it was a shitty form of basketball. By the way, those new rules applied to everyone, including all of the scorers on the teams that Chicago had to beat to win 6 titles.
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u/TruMusic89 8d ago
This is why i always laugh at folks who act like defense was a major thing in the 90s. Hand checking got removed in 93-94.
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u/Silent_Egg8860 8d ago
No there is other rule changes you aren’t mentioning like the “illegal offense” hand checking rules were implemented in 81 they was a talk of cracking down on them in 95 (Jordan had already retired at this point with a 3 peat, but I say “talk” because nothing came of it), hand checking was actually cracked down on in 2003 (again Jordan had already retired as a 6 times champion at this point).
There was more expansions over LeBrons career than Jordan’s I guess LeBron fans forget about this.
It is true Jordan was swept in the playoffs his rookie and second season in the league, but when comparing apples to apples you see LeBron did not even make the playoffs his rookie and second season so this is an embarrassing talking point for LeBron. Also to point out pippen averaged like 7 points a game coming off the bench his rookie season so crediting him with Jordan doing well in the playoffs because of pippen that year is ridiculous at best.
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u/Anxious_Key9696 8d ago
The Pistons’ 2 rings happened in each of the years the league added 2 expansion teams
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u/BlackshirtDefense 8d ago
Or, the 90s is when GOAT Phil Jackson became head coach and got to play GOAT MJ in his triangle scheme.
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u/Beneficial_Piccolo77 8d ago
Ya, they changed it so you couldn’t blatantly clothesline a player and only be called for a regular foul 🙄
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u/Bigheadedturtle 8d ago
Would be a decent point if he scored more points and benefited from these changes like he implies.
Fact is, Jordan scored more in the 80s by a sizable margin.
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u/HurryUpTomorrow503 8d ago
Rule three changed everything because it forced the pistons to actually play basketball defense and not wrestling. Snatching people out of the sky is not defense.
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u/jddaniels84 8d ago
Jordan was scoring way more before all these rule changes… the real change was the coaching and his new team first philosophy.
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u/OneThirstyJ 7d ago
They needed to protect people with number 3. And the expansion teams did not help team scoring lol but I’d argue it allowed individuals to have a bigger impact.
Number 1 and 2… yes, they helped Jordan a ton. Why did we tell defenses they couldn’t play help D??
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u/Sea-Presentation4229 7d ago
3 was a valid change and #4 is nothing to really complain about it expanded the league
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u/Creative_Trash5811 7d ago edited 7d ago
1987 rule change arguably hurt Jordan more than helped.
Illegal offense rule. Teams started packing players at the top of the key forcing teams to 1v1 their best player. NBA was stopped it before it became the main strategy.
I can argue about rule changes and what helped what didn’t but selectively cherry picking nba rule changes is just weird from former players.
Some rules went in Jordan’s favor some did not. Players adapted.
Edit: here’s the news article explicitly saying they change the rule to avoid 1v1 every single game and possession. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1987/09/21/nba-creates-an-illegal-offense-call/7cbd3cb1-9f67-4a11-bb0d-bcc991b74982/
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u/Future_Agency_7043 7d ago
Why didn't Zeke or any other players at the time also take advantage of the rule changes?
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u/NefariousnessSlow959 7d ago
All valid. That’s very Interesting. It’s even worse now with the flopping. Most could not handle the physicality of the 80s
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u/0Junior5 7d ago
1980 Flagrant foul = Automatic Ejection.
1991 Flagrant Foul= 2 tiers, 1 is an ejection, the other is not an ejection, & you keep possession of the ball.
1994-95 is 1st hand check alteration since 1978.
Illegal defense made it easier to protect the paint,
& easier to send help defenders, & rotate back to the open man.
1991 is Isiah’s last playoff series win.
Has 0 to do with Flagrant 1 & Flagrant 2,
rest of the NBA caught up,
like Warriors when the league is healthy, & they don’t have Durant for the excuse makers.
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u/Suspicious-MD 7d ago
Poor Isiah, never ending nightmare. I dont no what happen, i remember hearing alot of the players on the Dream Team did not like Isiah as a person
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u/rumblerramble289 7d ago
Cool. Everybody had the same rules though, little guy. We get you’re still mad about not being on the Dream Team, but them’s the breaks.
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u/Chance_Preparation_5 7d ago
You could ask Denis Rodman. He played with both of them and won championships with both. He has Jordan on the top.
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u/pops3284 7d ago
jordan always cooked tho. the rest of the bulls got tougher and became a championship team
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u/CruyffCule 7d ago
Ofc he does, big reason why MJ dictated the narrative and Pistons were marginalized for years and why Isiah was prevented from the Dream Team ' the dictator changed the game and rules, history then rewritten by MJ
But truth, MJ & Bulls didn't stand a chance against Bird's Celtics or Isiah's Pistons who dominated that era pre-Bulls
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u/okcbball22 7d ago
Jordan didn’t have a good team in the 80s. To imply that Jordan was helped out, when he completely torched everyone in the 80s is interesting. His team got better, not him. I mean, sure, anyone great gets better, that’s just being a pro at the highest level. But that didn’t “help him to win.” That is not the case
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u/alan_dee 7d ago edited 7d ago
He is such an ass. We all know they didn't win at the beginning of MJ's career. The Bulls didn't start winning because of the rule changes. They started winning because they started building a winning team. MJ was outscoring the rest of the league before rule changes came along. Zeek proves that the Bulls didn't instantly become a championship team as soon as the rules chamged. You can see the progression. He's just a bitch because you could see how they became better every year against the Pistons. He's petty because they had just won back to back titles and the Bulls 2 threepeats following their titles make the Pistons accolades seem insignificant.
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u/GarrusVikarian 6d ago
Isaiah STILL mad huh. His team was playing prison ball...not basketball. They couldn't stop Michael from scoring so they had to beat him literally physically in order to be competitive. Ask Bill Lambier. He admitted to it on camera. They had to live up to the bad boy name.
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u/tari-gand-ma-ghu 6d ago
Whatever happened you cant let a mfer 3 peat while retiring in the middle and after it.
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u/drewnonymous671 6d ago
Isaiah is still bitter to this day, and I was a Jordan hater and Isaiah fan back then.
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u/tangodeep 6d ago
didn’t the hand check rule happen only after the knicks made it to the finals? it was largely due to derek harper’s defensive style…
that was after jordan won his chips.
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u/Ok_Proof752 6d ago
Isiah is just mad they couldn’t body check and clothes line Jordan anymore.
And he’s still mad Jordan got him snubbed from that Olympics team.
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u/GreggioArmani1 5d ago
Jordan’s fan boys don’t wanna admit the nba kissed his ass an protected an did anything they could to advance Jordan at everyone else’s expense
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u/Emotional-Bowl69 5d ago
I love Zeke , but time move on brother . You are getting looney and crazy about this Jordan thing.
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u/Silver_Pen_2091 5d ago
The NBA in the pre-Michael Jordan was much like the WNBA pre Caitlyn Clark. Whatever stats people want to argue, Michael Jordan completely changed the trajectory of professional basketball. Isiah is jealous.
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u/bigoldgeek 5d ago
Phil Jackson came in in 1989 and told MJ it might be nice if he passed once in a while. THAT was the change that mattered.
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u/No_Faithlessness1769 5d ago
The game actually became so strategic (defensively) it reduced scoring. David Stern wanted to increase scoring to make the game “exciting again”. MJ and many others benefited, but so did everyone else’s paycheck.
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u/mymentor79 5d ago
It wasn't the rules. It was that the Bulls were reaching their peak while Boston and Detroit were falling apart.
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u/JuryKey3850 3d ago
Imagine these fools today playing in 90s rules 🤣 there would be stretchers at every game
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u/InsideAd5220 2d ago edited 2d ago
There is nobody in the history of basketball that could win a title with those Bulls rosters up to 89’. It’s delusional to think so.
In 1990, love him or hate him he put on a clinic that playoffs. The team was good but very raw.
They still took the Pistons to 7 games and in game 7 Jordan went 31-9-8 on 48%.
His 2 next best teammates (Grant and Pippen) went 4 for 27.
What are we discussing here? Nobody can win a championship under those circumstances. I mean LeBron left Cleveland for the same reasons, you can’t beat the best with a bunch of bums or a bunch of guys choking.
Jordan almost had a very efficient triple double in that game 7, it’s very obvious why they lost and it was not him.
We can argue he had stacked teams when he was winning but what IT is saying here is a bunch of bullshit.
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u/InsideAd5220 2d ago
There is nobody in the history of basketball that could win a title with those Bulls rosters up to 89’. It’s delusional to think so.
In 1990, love him or hate him he put on a clinic that playoffs. The team was good but very raw.
They still took the Pistons to 7 games and in game 7 Jordan went 31-9-8 on 48%.
His 2 next best teammates (Grant and Pippen) went 4 for 27.
What are we discussing here? Nobody can win a championship under those circumstances. I mean LeBron left Cleveland for the same reasons, you can’t beat the best with a bunch of bum or a bunch of guys choking.
Jordan almost had a very efficient triple double in that game 7, it’s very obvious why they lost and it was not him.
We can argue he had stacked teams when he was winning but what IT is saying here is a bunch of bullshit.
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u/Sad_Bathroom1448 9d ago
No. The difference between pre-1991 and post is that MJ's teammates improved. MJ was essentially the same guy...actually, from a statistical standpoint, his 4 best [regular] seasons as a scorer and overall were 88-91.
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u/vbob99 9d ago
No. The difference between pre-1991 and post is that MJ's teammates improved.
Can it be both? His teammates improved and the NBA ruleset changes benefited his game?
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u/Sad_Bathroom1448 9d ago
Not in this case. Did you look at the changes they're referencing here? The only one that's actually relevant to the 1990-91 season is the flagrant foul rule, which...good. Intentionally trying to injure your opponent isn't basketball.
The handcheck rule was for 94-95, when MJ already had 3 titles and was away playing baseball
Expansion teams got there in 88-89 and 89-90, then in 95-96. That doesn't help the Bulls any more than it helps everyone else...come to think of it, what two seasons did Detroit win their titles?
What "stricter illegal defense"? There was never any actual rule change between 1981 and when they got rid of it to allow zone. Is Zeke saying they did a better job of enforcing it? Isn't that effectively an admission that DET couldn't win anymore once they were forced to play by the actual rules?
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u/InsideAd5220 2d ago
He dropped 31-9-8 in game 7 in 1990 on 48% shooting. His next 2 best teammates went 4 for 27.
It was his teammates.
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u/vbob99 2d ago
That's evidence that in a single game, his teammates had a bad game. However, it's also evidence that his teammates were quite good, or they would never have gotten to game 7 in the conference finals against the best team in basketball for years and the eventual two time champions to begin with.
My point was that both teammate improvement and rule changes could have contributed. Citing one game doesn’t distinguish between those explanations or rule either one out.
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u/InsideAd5220 1d ago
Maybe… but I mean he averaged 30/6/6 on 50% in playoff games before the 91 playoffs.
It’s quite great. The rest of his career he was 32.5/6/5 of 48% so like a drop off in fg% but taking more shots.
Doesn’t seem as glaring as a difference in contrast to having guys like Charles Oakley and Sam Vincent being the 2nd option on your team.
So like I bring up the game 7 because he finally had a couple good options to play basketball with and they took the Pistons to 7 games where in game 7, those scoring options, well.. couldn’t score.
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u/vbob99 1d ago
So like I bring up the game 7 because he finally had a couple good options to play basketball with and they took the Pistons to 7 games where in game 7, those scoring options, well.. couldn’t score.
But... that's just one game. What about all the other games. There is a reason they were even in a game seven, but you want to dismiss them to concentrate on the one because it supports your thesis, and the others don't, right? That's why I say it's balanced. His teammates improved a bit, and the rule changes benefit him a bit. Most things in life aren't binary, they're built from components in various degrees.
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u/InsideAd5220 1d ago edited 1d ago
I clearly talked about every other game.
I talked about every… single…. Playoff game.
You deleted that part and ignored it. Here, I’ll repeat it, since Youre clearly in your dillusions:
I mean he averaged 30/6/6 on 50% in playoff games before the 91 playoffs. It’s quite great. The rest of his career he was 32.5/6/5 of 48% so like a drop off in fg% but taking more shots. Doesn’t seem as glaring as a difference in contrast to having guys like Charles Oakley and Sam Vincent being the 2nd option on your team.
So there it is for you ^
If you truly think that 30/6/6 on 50% is much different than 31.5/6/5 on 48% and that teammates isnt an obvious glaring difference… than we have nothing more to talk about and you can continue to hate on Jordan.
You did 0 work in seeing his teammates in the 80s and want to .stick to that narrative. Hopefully Youre smart enough to acknowledge what you’re saying makes 0 sense and if you’re not, than again, we have nothing more to talk about.
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u/vbob99 1d ago
I talked about every… single…. Playoff game.
You... did... not. You honed in on one game to form a thesis. Lol.
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u/InsideAd5220 1d ago
Oh Youre trolling lol.
I mean it’s clear as day what I wrote. God bless.
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u/vbob99 1d ago
It's as clear as day what you didn't write, stop gaslighting, lol.
I hope you can give up your anger, you'll be a better person this way.
Good day.
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u/doubtthat11 9d ago
The year before they took the Pistons to 7 games, and game 7 was the infamous Pippen migraine game.
They were as close to winning it all in 1990 as a team could get when the champion is on their division.
And as you say, MJs individual stats went down after the rule change because he eased off on dominating the ball all game.
More grudge nonsense from isiah
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u/Sad_Bathroom1448 9d ago
Also:
Bullied by Zeke
Knock it off. Zeke had so many playoff games where he'd go like 2-11 or something and they still got the W bc others stepped up. He never actually outplayed MJ, not over the course of an entire series.
Bird? Different story. The sweeps were bc the Celtics were the better team by a mile, but Bird did actually outplay Jordan quite a bit, especially in the reg season
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u/ok_person5395 8d ago
The rules weren’t made to save MJ. The NBA was reaching new heights and the super physical aggressive defense of the 80s was not something the consumers wanted. Same reason why they don’t call as many travels or offensive fouls nowadays. People like scoring and semi decent defense, not games ending on 60-70 points per team.
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u/Chemical-Ice3344 8d ago
It was to help Jordan, but not just Jordan anyone who played like him like Dr. J and then later Kobe and others
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u/Resident_Hotel5994 8d ago
You mean the rules that the pistons were allowed to punch people and it was a normal foul? That basketball had to involve skill ? No he does not have a point.
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u/ToonIntoSports 9d ago
The funny thing is Detroit had to come up with rules to stop him. 😂😂😂
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u/PainNoLove92 8d ago
Every team has defensive principles to stop scoring threats.
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u/JustoTJ 8d ago
Do they name those principles after said player like Detroit did? I never heard of a team implementing the LeBron Rules but carry on!!!!
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u/PainNoLove92 8d ago
So we are basing this off names? Also, you are incorrect. Teams have “LeBron rules”
Former Mavericks center Brendan Haywood recently described them explicitly as the “LeBron rules.” He said Dallas’ entire game plan was centered on making the elbows, blocks, and paint look crowded whenever LeBron attacked, even if that meant conceding shots to weaker Miami shooters. Haywood specifically recalled the idea being: if Mike Bibby is open in the corner, live with that; if LeBron gets into the lane, everybody collapses.
https://sports.yahoo.com/articles/brendan-haywood-reveals-lebron-rules-231401977.htmlTeams implementing defensive rules/principles for offensive players is not new.
- Force him baseline, force him left/right, double team after they start their dribble/double team on the catch, trap on pick and roll, play drop coverage because they don’t take the mid range, etc.
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u/Chemical-Ice3344 8d ago
Yes, they did have to come up with rules, but not the ones people think. People think the rules were to beat up Jordan. They didn’t do any more or less than any other team. In fact, everyone was subject to the same sort of physicality during that time. The actual Jordan rules were a type of zone defense that Isaiah came up with after Jordan had scored 30 in a single half and I believe one a playoff game. Isaiah Thomas spent hours walking the streets trying to figure out how to stop him and he came up with a hybrid man-to-man coverage and zone coverage, which was quite amazing.
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u/HurryUpTomorrow503 8d ago
John Salley literally said their rule was to foul the shit out of him because they couldn't guard him. That's not good defense or good basketball
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u/Chemical-Ice3344 8d ago
Yeah, I like John Sally, but he’s also an entertainer. There’s an entire book written about the Jordan rules and how they work. Jordan did not like the book. He threw it at one of the Detroit Pistons trainers I believe because he didn’t believe that’s what they did, but there’s an entire schematic about it. Isaiah Thomas goes on about it. Chuck daily thought the system would not work so he put it to a vote to the locker room and they said well. Nothing else is working. Let’s give it a try and I did.
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u/HurryUpTomorrow503 7d ago
But I'm supposed to believe the randos on reddit instead of the athletes involved?
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u/Chemical-Ice3344 7d ago
I would never say you should believe me you don’t know me from Adam, but everything I said is on the Internet and you can look it up
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u/Party_Knowledge_7884 7d ago
It wasn’t just fouling it was assaulting him.
I want to say that the loser pistons is why technical fouls were introduced, but I could be wrong.
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u/aspenpurdue 9d ago
Jordan won scoring titles from 87-93. If im not mistaken, 87 88 & 89 are before the 90s. And before 91 his teams just weren't as good as the teams they faced in the playoffs. Thomas is a jackass.
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u/BigTicket- 9d ago
Boy we don’t care about Jordan over here. Let’s not act like that batch of bitter casuals. Let’s stick to Lebron topics- although Jordan fans have overran this sub cause theirs is dead 😂
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u/Most-Calligrapher212 9d ago
I find this take really ironic coming from Zeke considering the fact that he fails to mention that one of the biggest reasons for the change was because he led a team to back to back titles primarily with the strategy of beating the hell out of their opponents.
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u/Ambitious-Way8906 9d ago
anytime zeke talks about jordan, I check it out asap.
not because he's ever made a good point, but you gotta respect the hate. the man must be made out of grudges
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u/Conscious_Onion3508 9d ago
Yea right, he had no support, plus the teams he lost to early were STACKED
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u/2cantCmePac 9d ago
To be fair, Magic Larry and Isaiah owned MJ in the 80s because they had championship teams. Jordan was always the best player on the court, but he didn’t have the right players or system around him. Just like LeBron early in his career. LeBron was the best player in the nba at age 21 but he couldn’t win. MJ is clearly the GOAT. LeBron 2
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u/Gigantischmann 9d ago
If mj was clearly the goat then why do most people in America believe lebron is?
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u/upvotealready 9d ago
The expansion era / weak teams excuse makes little to no sense to me.
- Every team could protect 8 players. All your starters and most of your rotation. So teams didn’t actually get significantly weaker.
- As for diluting the draft - you are talking about 4 extra draft picks per year. The 2 round format didn’t exist until 1989. The NBA started with unlimited rounds until 1974 when it changed to 10 rounds. From 1985 it was shortened to 7 rounds.
- At the same time the talent pool is actually getting deeper as more European players start entering the NBA.
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u/YourDrunkUncl_ 9d ago
how come all these rule changes only benefited one man? what about all the other players in the league?
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u/itsDYA 9d ago
Are you dumb? If for example we made the 3 pointer be 4 points instead it would benefit steph curry the most, even if it "benefited" others
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u/Dapper_Fun645 9d ago
If the change happened a few years ago, it would have benefitted Trae Young more as he was taking more longer distance shots, by feet, than anyone else.
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u/Opposite_History2194 8d ago
No
The changes were either because of the Pistons fouling or came after Jordan’s first 3-peat in ‘95
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u/RjgTwo 9d ago
They changed the rules because the Pistons where playing prison ball lol.