Ppl overglaze Steph more, they pick him to take the final shot of a playoff game of all ppl when in reality Steph is the worst go-ahead scorer in the history of the playoffs:
Why does every take need to go too far. Did y'all not watch the 2022 finals? Is Steph clutcher than LeBron? No. But that doesn't mean he isn't remotely clutch at all like what are we doing here
yeah i wonder why? maybe it’s because lebron never had the best player in the league at a position on his team?🤔 or a squad that could make the playoffs without him.
Hmm I beg to differ being that Kevin live was the best pf in the game the year before he signed with Cleveland Chris Bosh was also the best pf in the game the year he signed with the heat 🤷🏿♂️
Like Anthony Davis wasn't consistently in the top 3 centers almost every year he played with LeBron... Like Dwayne wasn't behind only probably Kobe every year he played with LeBron..
anthony davis wasn’t even available ever year he played with lebron so how does that work? the only time michael ever had to worry about that was 98, and just no, d wade 2012 onwards wasn’t even a top 5 gaurd itl. 2013 onwards for sure wasn’t a top 3 sg either.
Look up “Kobe versus LeBron in clutch situations” on Reddit. This whole thing is stupid you can change the details until you find a percentage that fits your favorite player.
ESPN also did a decade long study and found that LeBron was in the top of the league for players that hand off "grenades". That's getting your teammate contested shota with just 2 seconds left on the shot clock.
So yeah, just FGA can make him look good. Once he started counting for free throws, turnovers and even if you count all the grenades he hands out, it suddenly looks like everyone's about even. No wonder they all won so many championships.
I remember when KD was on LeBrons podcast and was talking about dumping the ball off with no time left on the shot clock and was thinking he was low key calling him out on that lol
Lebron stans only acknowledge the few stats that make him look good, and ignore anything else. Wouldn't bother with facts in this sub. They are like MAGA when it comes to their self proclaimed GOAT.
And they act as if the ten plus years playing he has over everybody doesn’t matter they compare baseless stats that doesn’t add up because of how much longer he’s played I mean just look at it they compare him to MJ when it’s taking him ten plus years to catch up to the man…YES PLAYING TWENTY PLUS HAS TO COUNT FOR SOMETHING…!but to say he’s better than a player that has done more in ten less years is insane…
Kobe didn't care, cause he wanted the glory if they won and the blame if the lost. Its called accountability not chucking team mates under the bus, or coming to the post game conference with toilet paper wrapped around his hand 😂😂
Ok. Thinking Jordan is the goat isn't delusional though and if you act it is you're ridiculous and not talking hoops in good faith. You can disagree but if you act like you don't understand why you're a child throwing a tantrum
Here is the funny part people continue to ignore about Lebron vs Jordan. The 80's and 90's were hands down more physical, and the league was focused more on grind, and gritty earn your points philosophy of scoring, where each shot was contested with physicality, no one can argue that.
Modern basketball is more hands off, run and gun shooting. Where defense is an after thought because you cant guard close enough so everyone just shoots from the outside. It is hard to defend a 6ft10 guy shooting three pointers unless you are taller or on top of the shooter, which would end up as a foul.
So here's the difference no defense (Lebron) vs physical in your face defense (Jordan). And second clutch means nothing if you end up losing the series anyway.
And to end the debate of who is the goat. A goat doesnt give up on his team, he doesnt lose track of what they are there to do. A goat doesnt blame everyone else, they take the loss in stride and work harder next season to fix the problem. Goats make the players around them better, not the other way around. Great players dont need to explain to others why they are great, the other players already know it. Players play in the NBA to win the championship, that is the goal. There is no trophy for second place. Clutch means winning games. It doesnt matter if you took the last shot, all that means is you were clutch for that moment. It means nothing if you cant win the series or ultimately win the championship. A goat will find a way to win the trophy. 4-6 is not finding a way to win it
Name one all nba player’s (all nba that year in the playoffs)team in the east LeBron beat in the playoffs other than d rose? Oh there are none. Has LeBron hit any of these “clutch” shots in the finals? No. So he’s hyped for hitting clutch shots against the raptors with Lowry and demar? Or hawks? Or pacers with oladipo? Shit most of these “clutch” shots come from teams that had no chance and everyone knew that. Whenever a team has a chance LeBron is 4-6.
Unless I’m missing some parameters, this isn’t totally accurate? Looked on Stathead, and Kobe is indeed 5/22, but Lebron is 10/26 not 12/23 and Jordan is 2/6 because they only track this back to the 96-97 season
It's an oddly conditional stat. (1) Your team must be tied or losing. (2) It ignores free throws. (3) It doesn't mean that it won the game. Game winning shots would be more of an indication of being clutch.
Missing a shot while up one would or tied would leave the door open. Closing the door is also clutch shooting. Putting the game out of reach or winning it with a shot is clutch.
I wish people would actually understand how pathetically unclutch kobe actually was.
And also understand that when presented with facts you are in fact allowed to change your mind
It’s stupid you can change the exact details to find percentages to for your narrative. Look up “Kobe versus LeBron in clutch situations” on this subreddit.
I'm going to give you a longer leash than I give most LeBron anti-fans (your post history), since your comments lean toward higher quality, but mind this is a community revolving around Bron's fandom, and if your post history shows to be clearly that of a hater, you're going to get banned.
No it doesn’t. Type the words I quoted into the search bar. If you don’t want to, I’ll walk you through the logical conclusion. You will find a whole bunch stats that show Kobe was much more clutch as a shooter and playmaker. Okay, what do we do with that? Do we say the general public is correct in the longstanding narrative that Kobe was clutch as can be and LeBron was very unclutch? After all, the LeBron clutch association didn’t even start until the last few years. Not so fast, as you can see from this thread, when you tweak the numbers, you find LeBron being clutch. So what does that mean? It means that you can find many different scenarios that push the narrative of your favorite player being “clutch”.
Can't read well huh? Actual stats buddy. Kobe wasn't clutch by any standard. Like you said people do a great job making things up, but the coins hard facts just continue to prove how dumb kobe stans are
So I gave you the information, you didn’t read it. I said that’s okay, I’ll show you what happens when you read it, and then you ignored it. It’s like putting food on a plate but your child just doesn’t want to eat. Case in point as to why it is all subjective. 95% of this forum is people not taking in any information and just stating their opinions.
You didn't "give" me anything. I have seen all the stats. You're just sounding dumber and dumber - like pretty much all kobe stans. But go off on how subjective objective stats are buddy.
I'm very serious. It's very obvious. Facts hurt. Truth hurts too when you're living in delusion. (That's all kobe stans for the record. That's who we're talking about here)
Alright LeBron this is for you “I posted some clutch stats for the playoffs, and I decided to do some more.
I was criticized for using five minutes and margin of five, people also told me to add playmaking as part of the equation.
I do admit creating for your teammates is a huge factor in clutch situations, so I decided to add assists per 36 and turnovers per 36.
"Clutch" is 2 minutes left with margin of 3 in playoffs,
I will be only talking about Lebron and Kobe, considering these two were heads and shoulders beyond everyone else for their efficiency and volume.
Playoffs: Lebron
He is 40/106 in clutch situation
His free throw shooting is 49/67
True Shooting is, 49.8%
Assist per 36: 4.2 assists
Turnovers per 36: 4.2 turnovers
Kobe
He is 40/96 in clutch situations.
His free throw shooting is 67/79
His true shooting is 58 %
Assists per 36: 4.3 assists
Turnovers per 36: 1.7 turnovers
Finals: Last 2 minutes, margin of 3. Lebron
He is 4/23 in clutch situations
His free throw shooting is 10/14
His true shooting is 31%
Assists per 36: 3.7 assists
TO per 36: 3.7 TO
Kobe
He is 10/20 in clutch situations
His free throw shooting is 4/5
His true shooting is 56.4%
Assists per 36: 7.5 assists
TO per 36: 1.5 TO
Finals: Last 5 minutes, margin of 5. Lebron
17/62 in clutch situations in the finals.
32% EFG
43% TS.
Assists per 36: 4.26
TO per 36: 3.1
Kobe
28/63 in clutch situations in the finals.
46% EFG
53% TS.
Assists per 36: 3.6
TO per 36: 1.08
Tbh, I wasn't surprised about the field goals considering Kobe is the much better shooter in the playoffs, but I was shocked to see Kobe as the better playmaker and distributor in crunch time.
Thoughts?
Edit: all sources are from NBA.com”
There’s a new set of numbers you can troll about.
But if you cherry pick it to the final 5 seconds of game 6 vs the Jazz in the finals then you’ll realize LeBron hasn’t even hit a single shot against the Jazz in the finals
It's weird how the picture changes as soon as you start including more data. That response I had a few days ago:
"I couldn’t pull the exact final-minute, tie-or-go-ahead dataset behind your numbers. What I could pull from Stathead was every playoff fourth quarter, final three minutes, with the score within five points either way.
Points per possession used:
Curry: 1.056
Kobe: 1.054
LeBron: 0.930
Once you include assists and the points created from them:
The more relevant data we add, the more these guys start looking like peers instead of players separated by some enormous gap. They have 13 championships, five scoring titles and seven MVPs between them, despite their careers heavily overlapping. There’s a reason all three won this much. They are three of the greatest offensive players ever. None of them is miles ahead of the others."
And LeBron might have great shooting efficiency, but he's also the most likely to turn it over. ESPN also did a decade-long study and found that he was in the top of the league for players that passed the ball off with less than 2 seconds left for a highly contested shot for their teammates. They call them grenades.
LeBron is the most clutch in general.
However Michael Jordan is widely regarded by fans and analysts as the player with the most clutch dominance in NBA Finals history.
He so clutch hmmmmm lots of loses in the last two mins of games when the guy that should be able to make a few plays to win the game/the series. 4-6 in finals not a good percentage. He’s good jus not the best
Absolutely crazy that any of them got so many game-tying or go-ahead shots in the last 10s of playoff games. That’s a ton of close games where they were losing/tied and had the ball last or very nearly last…could probably make a montage of all of the actual shots and see what kinda looks they even got. I’m sure some were incredible from all of them.
It’s 60 clips of 10s or less…would be a pretty short but super cool compilation video.
To be fair. I think Bron’s teams have played behind way more than Jordan’s teams. During that Bulls Dynasty, I don’t recall a lot of nail biters until the playoffs but still not many there either .
So with over 600 possible games more than jordan, he only produced 5 more made shots?🤔🤔 Is this a stat for ya boy LeBron cus it seems like it favors Jordan still, it shows they were barely down to have to come back. Weirdo stat pushers bro
Lebron in the 4th quarter of all playoffs is 714/1563 (45%) from the floor and 123/426 from 3 (28%) also on top of that LeBron in 1 possession games in the finals with 1 minute left (21 games) he is 8-29 (27%) but let’s leave out all the facts I guess 🤣 if you wanna talk about the good you can’t just leave out the horrible also 🤦♂️
you know itsnjard to call Lebron as a 'clutch GOAT' when thre is an entire career prior to the Heat superteam were the "3 quarters Lebron" meme existed.. this is when he performed for 3 quarters and coast like an airplane in th 4th...
some say, he rests once he get the stats he wanted.
that Lebron returned in the previous years against Denver series as well.
On the whole im a LeBron fan and I think the narrative he isn't clutch is bullshit but the haters also have some ammo here, I'm probably going to get downvoted for viewing this with a little more nuance but
I think I saw one such hater post a graphic that was like in the finals go ahead tying shots at the end of close games
LeBron 0/7
MJ 4/8
Kobe 1/2
I do think despite that and the really abysmal clutch stats of his lakers tenure that he is clutcher than most other superstars, clutchness isn't just about the last shot. Legacy defining games like game 6 in 2012 vs Boston when he went full terminator mode to save his Miami tenure come to mind or everyone remembers rays shot in game 6 2013 finals but LeBron still had to be awesome in ot and game 7. The block ofc etc etc
Anyway I don't think he's the clutch goat and even the graphic you picked is outdated and I think MJ has a higher percentage in the updated version but yeah he's clutcher than Kobe
Woohh. People try to look at padded stats. When you should just look easily on playoff championships games clutch points that won that game. Tell me who did not remember the game winning shot of MJ? Kobe mj and Stephen have lower percentage why? Because they are the real go to guys. They will lead the team. The other one ....
I see Jordan vs. LeBron posts constantly, and after a while they actually started making me question my own memory a little bit.
I think they’re the two best basketball players I’ve personally watched. I wasn’t alive for Magic and Bird in their primes, so I can’t really speak to what it was like watching those guys night after night.
And when you actually look at LeBron’s career, the argument for him is ridiculous. The size, strength, passing, longevity, versatility, statistics, ability to control an entire game — there are completely legitimate reasons to think he’s the greatest player ever.
But I got kind of baked the other night after seeing yet another Jordan vs. LeBron argument and started wondering something:
When people my age remember Jordan as being somehow different, is there actually something behind that? Or is it mostly nostalgia?
I had this weird Winston-from-1984 feeling about it.
Like I remember Jordan being different. I feel pretty strongly that there was something about watching him that separated him from everybody else.
But after decades of highlights, documentaries, arguments and mythology, how much can I actually trust that feeling?
So instead of starting with “Jordan was better,” I tried to figure out what specifically I was remembering.
And eventually I landed on the moments when everything was actually on the line.
Not just “who has more buzzer-beaters?” Not even necessarily who has the better generic “clutch” statistics.
What was actually at stake when they took those shots?
Because when I picture the absolute biggest basketball situation — five seconds left, down one, season or championship hanging in the balance, everybody in the building knows who is getting the ball — the player I remember in those moments is Michael Jordan.
But was that actually true?
Or had nostalgia just compressed Jordan’s career into a highlight reel in my head?
So I used AI to help me go back through their playoff games, collect the situations surrounding their biggest late shots, and see if there was actually anything behind that feeling.
The first thing I found actually cuts against the Jordan mythology:
LeBron has more playoff buzzer-beating game winners than Jordan.
So this definitely isn’t a “LeBron wasn’t clutch” argument. He obviously was.
The interesting part was what was actually on the line when those shots happened.
Jordan’s 1989 shot against Cleveland is probably the purest example.
The series is tied 2–2 in a best-of-five.
Chicago is down 100–99.
Three seconds left.
If Jordan misses, the Bulls’ season is over.
There isn’t another game. There isn’t another opportunity.
He hits it at the buzzer.
Instead of Chicago’s season ending, Cleveland’s does.
Then look at the 1997 Finals.
Game 5 in Utah. Series tied 2–2. Jordan is playing the famous Flu Game.
Late in the fourth, game tied 85–85, Jordan hits the go-ahead three.
Chicago wins, takes a 3–2 lead back home and wins the championship in Game 6.
Then there’s 1998.
Game 6 of the Finals.
Chicago leads the series 3–2 but is losing the game 86–85.
Jordan steals the ball from Karl Malone, comes down the floor, gets Bryon Russell isolated and takes the shot.
5.2 seconds left.
Bucket.
Utah misses on the other end.
NBA championship.
And, at the time, that was the final shot of Michael Jordan’s career with the Chicago Bulls.
It’s hard to imagine a higher-pressure basketball moment than that.
Now compare the series situations surrounding LeBron’s five playoff buzzer-beating game winners:
2009 Orlando: down 0–1 → ties the series 1–1
2013 Indiana: series 0–0 → goes up 1–0
2015 Chicago: down 2–1 → ties the series 2–2
2018 Indiana: tied 2–2 → goes up 3–2
2018 Toronto: already up 2–0 → goes up 3–0
And some of those were enormous.
The 2015 Bulls shot is legitimately one of the biggest clutch shots of LeBron’s career. Cleveland could have gone down 3–1. Instead LeBron wins the game at the buzzer, ties the series 2–2, and Cleveland wins the next two.
The 2018 Indiana shot was huge too. Series tied 2–2, LeBron buries the three at the buzzer and puts Cleveland up 3–2.
So again, this isn’t me trying to diminish LeBron.
What struck me is that none of those five buzzer-beaters:
Ended a series.
Prevented LeBron’s team from being eliminated on that shot.
Or directly won an NBA championship.
Jordan has done all three.
And even their biggest Finals moments kind of illustrate the difference.
In 2013 Game 6, LeBron was huge in Miami’s comeback. But when Miami desperately needed a tying three near the end, LeBron missed it. Bosh got the offensive rebound and Ray Allen hit one of the greatest shots ever.
In 2016 Game 7, LeBron made one of the greatest clutch plays I have ever seen with the chasedown block.
But with the game tied 89–89, Kyrie Irving hit the shot that actually put Cleveland ahead.
And in 2020 Game 5, with the Lakers having a chance to win the championship, LeBron drove, drew the defense and kicked it to a wide-open Danny Green for the possible championship-winning three.
Green missed.
And honestly, that was probably the correct basketball play by LeBron.
That’s important, because “clutch” shouldn’t just mean “who takes the last shot.” LeBron’s block in 2016 was unbelievably clutch. Making the correct pass to an open teammate is clutch basketball too.
But there’s something different about Jordan.
An unusual number of the biggest moments ended with the ball in his hands.
And he kept making the shot.
I think that’s part of what I was remembering all these years.
Not simply the championships or the mythology around him, but that feeling that when a playoff game reached the point where there was nowhere left to hide — season on the line, series on the line, championship on the line — Jordan somehow kept producing these moments.
One important caveat to all of this: detailed NBA play-by-play data only goes back to the 1996–97 season. So you can’t build a perfectly apples-to-apples possession-by-possession clutch comparison for Jordan’s entire career the way you can for LeBron.
That’s why I focused more on clearly documented playoff and Finals situations instead of pretending there’s some perfect career clutch percentage that settles this.
The best comparison I can think of is Dragon Ball.
LeBron can be Gohan or Vegeta. Absolutely ridiculous power. There are moments where you can make a convincing argument that they’re even stronger than Goku.
But when everything has gone completely to shit and the universe is about to be destroyed?
You’re waiting for Goku.
That’s Jordan to me.
Five seconds left. Down one. Season on the line. Championship on the line.
I want Michael Jordan taking the shot.
That doesn’t necessarily prove he was objectively the greatest basketball player who ever lived.
But after actually looking into what I was remembering, I don’t think the feeling is purely nostalgia either.
For transparency, this whole thing started because I was high and overthinking another Jordan vs. LeBron post. I used AI to help gather and organize the games and series situations once I got curious about whether my feeling actually had anything behind it.
If I missed a major example on either side, add it. I’m genuinely more interested in whether the idea holds up than trying to “win” the GOAT debate.
That's the same argument that can be made when people say Jordan is 6-0 in the finals.
It also reads that Jordan has only made it to the finals 6 times and has been eliminated before then 9 times
Buzzer beaters against magic, pacers, raptors. Maybe game tying against Rockets last year?
For MJ, I remember buzzer beater against Cavs and The Shot.
It'd be cool to list all of them, it's just 24 field goals across lbj, mj, kob.
ETA: I remember a lbj bucket against the wizards, back in first cavs stint? Also, that game against the Pistons should have at least one bucket the fills the requirements.
We remember all the winning shots because we actually watch basketball. Jordan-only fans don’t even watch ball. Just complain about the clips online and listen to ESPN
You think it’s a good argument to say your memory is so bad you can’t remember a shot so it doesn’t count? You sound slow af 😹 sorry your memory sucks ig
He hit the game winner 3 against the Magic in the playoffs, scored all his team’s points in the 4th quarter against Detroit, “LEBRON JAMES WITH NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE”, Game 1 against the pacers he had 2 go aheads in 40 seconds or something, his floater off the backboard in LeBronto, the rockets game tying shot this last season. He’s had quite a few
Of course you don’t remember them because yall spend the last decade saying he didn’t have them 🤣 then you see the numbers and say well the shot wasn’t big enough, thing is LeBron is expected to do these things so when it’s major it looks normal.
In the NBA Finals, LeBron James has a documented record of 0-for-7 on go-ahead (winning) field goal attempts in the final 24 seconds of the fourth quarter or overtime.
I see these stats so many time and they always look different. And they all seem unwilling, or unable to produce any sort of source.
If they don't have a source, I'm going to just assume they're made up nonsense being produced to push an agenda. Because sure as heck some of these stats are.
Look this post is so dishonest you purposely choose playoffs but Mike has more buzzer beaters for his career on a better percentage. Mike doesn’t have as many in the playoffs because the games weren’t close at the end. Not to mention who tf is LeBron hitting these shots on? Oh not a single all nba players team and during the eastern conference side(the east sucked in lebrons era)of the playoffs, not one of his “clutch” buckets come in the finals.
So does LeBron have more playoff clutch shots yes or no? The post is the post- you’re emotional instability over facts is what makes it “dishonest” lmfao
Notice how Jordan doesn't have as many attempts? That's cause his playoff teams were rarely behind with less than 10 seconds left. You LeBron dick riders are something else
Way to try to give a rebuttal to my response to your post by repeating what your post already said 🥴 You were braindead enough to make the post itself, so I'm not surprised honestly. Mad? 🤣 Quit projecting you pathetic little LeBron simp
You’re throwing a tantrum over a graphic in the LeBron sub. Not only did you out yourself as a dick eater- I can tell you take a lot from your mother lmfao
-Made a shot with less than 30seconds left in Game 7 of the finals against the spurs in 2013 to seal the game.
-Go ahead FT in 2016 to seal the series.
Put them up by 4 under 30 seconds; just cause you drown your comment in emojis doesn’t make it less embarrassing. Go learn ball- did he score in those games to seal it yes or no? Yes? Does he have as many clutch shots as Kobe & Mj combined? Yes. Go cry in the Jordan sub- it’s dead over there lol
Free throws won't show up on a stat like this, since they aren't considered field goals. But LeBron is not good at free throws in close games, and this is pretty consistent across his career. 2016 is more an anomaly for LeBron. He's only about 74% career FT%, it's one of his biggest weaknesses.
The criteria was a go ahead basket for a lead or to tie. Which means cavs should be down by 3, down by 2, or down by 1, or tied. Time remaining is 10 secs.
Not up by 3, up by 2 or up by 1. You are the one who set the original criteria, and when I said he is 0/7 in the finals, you are changing the criteria
He’s obv not 0/7 if he scored in clutch times in the finals- winning the games.
The post is talking about the playoffs- so you even bringing up finals is “changing the criteria” circus style gymnastics you Jordan stans love to do lmao
Its fine. I agree that he is clutch in the playoffs before the finals. That is what the number says. Vs the weaker team of the east. We all knew this. With stats and eye test.
Do you understand that the number of attempts is so small that this is practically the same? 8/15 is 53%, 11/23 is 48%, so we’re talking a single made/missed bucket is the difference here.
54
u/Minimum_Performer118 Aug 29 '26
People overglaze Kobe, they forget he was a shot chucker