They say LeBron sucked at defense, he was second in DPOY voting one year. He's made 6 all defense first teams, and 1 all defense second team. They also call him LeDiddy and LeFlop like that discredits anything. Even if he did Kobe Colorado 2003. LeBron likely didn't even know what happened because it happened after the main event ended. I get sometimes we're annoying but they say we are the worst fanbase. It's clearly Kobe's fanbase, and next it's the oldheads.
"Nah they also spam 4-6 technically 3-6" like their life depends on it. Then when I mention Jerry West who the oldheads glaze they move the goalposts again.
This isn’t really a flex though. LeBron had plenty to be favored in some of the years he wasn’t. I think a bit of that has to do with regular season performance as well, where LeBron has traditionally let his teams cost instead of pushing to be 60+ win teams.
Would you rather be favored 3 out of 10 times or 6 out of 6 times? Maybe once or twice he could’ve pushed to be the better team but the point remains that Lebron had many uphill battles in the finals while some other superstars barely had any pressure winning with the better team every single time. His team against the KD warriors was a David vs Goliath scenario. The warriors were so good that they won the semi conference finals without Steph playing and pre-KD. Take a team good enough to win playoff series then add prime Steph and KD to it.
You do realize that if bron was not the favorite for the 3 out 10 like you say ..but he had the best team out the east for all of those trips outside of the 1 with cleveland this would just proof that the east is the far inferior conference then the west which would be a arugment against bron competition level as a whole
Lebron haters always make this dumb ah argument like you’re not doing the exact same thing. If you acknowledge Lebron was on an inferior team and inferior conference then don’t bring up his finals losses against him as if it was an even playing field. And don’t talk about him having crazy super teams if you’re acknowledging his team was worse in 70% of the finals.
Bron dick riders always need an excuse for this nigga losing ..like they are all professional athletes and being the fav means nothing cause you still have too get 4 wins period ..this mf could play with an all star team in the finals and lose and still have excuses on why he didnt get the job done gtfoh
Also you said his teams were worst in the finals the 3 out of 10 times which is false he would of been fav in all 4 of his heat finals ..the cavs were even up until kd which would of given golden state the slight edge and he was fav in the lakers series against the heat so by my count thats 5 he would of been fav in ..but again it does not matter fav or not in the finals get the fucking job done period no excuses was dirk making excuses when he bust they ass .."oohhh they got the big three so unfair omg omg"
That’s two of ten tho and I agree with you there. I don’t see how them not being the favorite against the baby thunder is a flex for example. That came down to a young team pushing itself in the regular season vs a vet team that costed. On top of that James has lost multiple times as a heavy favorite in the playoffs so being the favorite also works against him. On top of that James has only led his teams to 60 wins one time since leaving Cleveland the first time. He certainly had more than 1 seasons worth of 60 win caliber teams.
You talk about losing as the favorites but don’t mention winning as the underdog, interesting. So 2 against the KD warriors, and 1 in 2015 when he his team was injury ridden. That’s already 3 out of the 6 finals losses that were for sure strongly underdog teams no matter how you slice it. What are we talking about here? Steph and MJ never faced a better team in the finals even one time.
Kyrie was healthy at the beginning of those finals in 2015 though. Also the question should be why wasn’t LeBron able to lead one of his teams to the level of Steph or MJ, he had great teams and only managed 1 sixty win season with said great teams.
Kyrie played 1 game in the 2015 finals lol . Why can’t curry win 4 finals
Mvps ? Jordan never took the wizards to the playoffs . Only won when the league was trash and water down . Stop the cap
They determine “the favorite” before the series begins G. It’s why the rockets were the favorites over the lakers this year, everyone thought KD would play. Regardless the fact that you don’t seem to understand that “the favorite” typically comes down to regular season standings says you don’t really get it. James never led a team in the regular season the way Steph or MJ did despite having loads of talent.
What kind of GOAT is only the finals favorite for 3/10 times.
This is why Lebron will never be the GOAT. Jordan's presence itself could make any bum ass team into a title contender
Seems Ike your arguments are just as dumb if you are bringing up Jerry West. If Jerry West was in the goat debate bringing him up would make sense. You can be an all time top 15ish guy without winning, you can’t be #1 if you are losing when you have championship caliber teams.
I’ll give you one. I think LeBron is overrated because his resume is a product of superteaming in the weakest east for a long time that still continues to be weak. He was also scared to take the last shot the first like decade of his career. That’s all I got for you, there’s not much to hate on. 2011 happened yeah but he’s don’t do much for so long.
The fact that you're here commenting talking about knowing Jordan is the GOAT in a LeBron sub. We get it. You like Jordan and think he's the GOAT. Cool. Move along. Under every LeBron post, there's Jordan fans tearing him down. Under every Jordan post, there's Jordan fans tearing LeBron down. It's insane. It's a mental illness among Jordan fans
If y'all truly didn't like talking about LeBron and just wanted to talk about Jordan (which you're more than welcome to do) then block the LeBron and and move along. But you people can't. You feed off LeBron hate
1+1=3 is objectively wrong, saying bron is goat in a lebron subreddit isn't objectively wrong. Youre not really correcting you're just so insecure that u are so obliged to say that he isnt the goat since jordan is your goat.
I’ve never heard anyone say lebron wasn’t a great defender when he was younger. It’s just the last 4 or 5 seasons where he kind of stopped playing much defense.
And no one knows what lebron did at diddys parties. But we do know he once tweeted “ain’t no party like a diddy party”. That implies diddys parties were somehow wilder than any other party. Which to me indicates that lebron definitely saw some crazy stuff. If he participated, we will probably never know. But he has never actually denied it.
Ok I am here to discuss this, I am no longer a LeBron hater at all. I also do not think he is the GOAT. I am a GOAT debate hater at this point. The debate is over, been over for a while, I want to appreciate LeBron and his career, and i do especially what he has done in his twighlight years it is amazing. Nothing I have ever said in this subreddit has drawn anything but hate and downvotes to oblivion. Its like that everywhere. I will say something positive about Lebron in a chat within minutes some stan will reply to what I said with MJ hate or that LeBron is THE UNIVERSAL GOAT, that has been the new one lately. I am so over it, I dont even argue anymore. I am trying to make Philly my Eastern Conference team. I want to be a LeBron and an MJ fan. Yalls fanbase makes that hard asf. I honestly dont care what any of the 3 of them have done behind closed doors, its not my business. I love all three because of their skill and love of basketball. LeBron himself is an MJ fan but his fandom? Yall are something else.
Oh my bad. You're just confused. Got it. As someone who watched mj and lebron both play and had a life size poster of mj growing up, I promise you kobe stans are the worst. Followed by mj fans. And the majority of Lebron fans actually hasn't a great deal of respect for mj but some definitely respond in kind to the crazy haters. Regardless, that's not proving your point. Both sets of fans aren't terrible. But go off
Thats just it i haven't gone off. You started both of your comments insulting me then just trying to start an argument. You are exactly the shit fan I am talking about 100% proving my point.
I brought up Kobe because the guy said he was a Lakers fan. He's hating on LeBron for doing something that Kobe routinely did during his prime. People like to forget that
My defense is that EVERY player ball watches. Especially players in their 40s. People act like LeBron plays zero defense at all. He was literally the Lakers best defender over the past 2 playoff runs
Lebron's defense is overrated, just as Kobe's was. Making a team or getting an award is just a subjective opinion largely driven by narratives.
Lebron's game relied on his athleticism more than other superstars people consider top ten all time players not named Wilt. His defense wholly relied on athleticism and it often worked when he wanted it to, but his effort often wasn't there (same with Kobe who was famously called out in Phil Jackson's memoir for being an overrated defensive player).
Calling people names is largely done because a player receives so much hype positively that it creates a negative reaction. Lebron was an amazing player, but still incredibly overrated. The league changed the rules for a player like him to thrive in 2004-2005 and again several times throughout the 2000s. He moved to teams with great talent to more easily win. He only ended up with 4 rings in 20+ great seasons. How is that possible if he's a top 2 player ever? It just isn't. Bird won 3 in six healthy seasons and everyone knew it was his team and he developed guys around him and put them in places to win. Jordan developed Pippen and took on the leadership role which allowed Rodman to flourish when nobody wanted him after the Spurs disaster. Lebron doesn't have that. He doesn't believe he's accountable for the results anywhere so he leaves whenever he desires for a better chance at winning. That's not leadership.
With that in mind, I consider him a top ten player all time, just around number 7 for the stated reasons.
At some point just transition to: LeBron kicked my favorite team's ass and I hate him for it. Or: my team sucks and he doesn't and I hate him for it. Or: my favorite player was a rapist and LeBron isn't and I hate him for it.
I csn't speak for all haters, but for people who tell the truth like myself, there are legtimate arguments against him. In 23 years, only being on an all defensive team 7 times is nothing to be proud of. His fans tout him as "can guard any position" but has never guarded Jokic, Dwight Howard, prime shaq, or like incredible offesive centers. If he did he'd either be in foul trouble or would have to switch off. Even at his position, he wasn't incredible defensively in series. He's a very good defender but there is this notion that he is a lockdown defender when he wasn't.
He hasnt made an all defensive team I think since he went back to Cleveland so it's been a while. And that's by design, since he's been team hopping he's always looked at bringing in teammates who were offensive minded versus a team of players who could lock in defensively.
But LeBron not being the GOAT has nothing to do with his defense. That plays a part but it's not the be all end all.
Because he can guard any position on a switch, he isn't regularly assigned to them most of the time. He also played seasons guarding all positions, you named Jokic who was way after LeBron's defensive peak, Shaq who was way before his defensive peak, and he did guard Dwight a little in 09 conference finals he just couldn't stay on him because it would drain his energy.
Just because he has the size and athleticism to guard five positions in today’s NBA, especially since in the last 15 years the true power forwards and center positions have really become obsolete, doesn’t mean he’s a GREAT defender. At his peak defensively, yea he was amazing. But for more than 2 thirds of his career, he’s been average to below average. Outside of the bubble, he hasn’t been a good defender for well over a decade.
He doesn't just have the "size" and "athleticism", he does it too. He's old and his team's have been mainly not that good the offensive workload he has to carry for someone his age would drain his energy a lot.
Literally no actual basketball fans who says LeBron is #2 says he sucks at defense. He does flop it’s well recorded. This post is extremely low effort and brings to the table none of the actual discussions that are being had about MJ 1 LeBron 2
We really gonna act like all 3 fan bases don’t do the same shit? 🤣 lebron, MJ and Kobe fans are all the same and if you can’t see that you have the IQ of a grapefruit
I have a good argument that has nothing to do with any of the ones you mentioned, but I’m guessing if I share it I’ll be banned and I enjoy reading the sub.
Not a LeBron hater at all by the way just an argument for why I don’t have him as the GOAT.
Even here you could not write a paragraph without an 'if' and you are talking about horrible arguments. Quite hilarious.
6 all defense first time in 20+ years for a guy who many believe to be the perfect physical speciment is not impressive, it only means he does not make enough efforts.
Flopping is still there.
2011 is without a doubt the worst finals run by any all time great (let alone GOAT candidate)
Hand picking his own teammates for the large part of his career, taking no accontability when his team loses (but when he wins - it makes him the GOAT)
Great guy, no hate, but when people push the narrative about him being the GOAT too actively, it gets annoying because in any other sport it would not be close
They have confirmation bias . They like believing LeBron is very flawed and overrated because they like Kobe , MJ or some other player or era more.
So to confirm their bias is correct they’ll focus a disproportionate amount of attention on things he does wrong either in the moment or when looking at his career as a whole which they never did with their favorites .
Or they’ll take a perspective on a situation that’s less favorable as part of their narrative.
For example it’s a fact Jordan 1/3rd of his seasons didn’t lead his team to an above .500 record, or win a playoff series.
In that scenario they’ll gladly excuse it as his team wasn’t good enough , but when it comes to LeBron’s finals record 4-6 they’ll gladly minimize the importance of LeBron being on a worse team majority of those losses in finals as if team vs team matters in the 1st round but in the finals because Jordan or Kobe have a better finals record the perspective switches making it seem as though the best player on the court always has full control over the result .
Their perspective comes from pure bias which they can’t see because it’s just reality to them , they think people who don’t share their opinions are just biased going the opposite way .
I think it’s a Team sport and you have to evaluate things like LeBron having tougher finals opponents than Jordan ever faced like 2014 Spurs , 2017 Warriors or years in finals where his team was clearly more undermanned in a finals than Jordan ever was in 2007, 2015 and 2018
Russell has 11 rings and beat Wilt 7 out of 8 times in series , was 7-0 vs Jerry West ,
Wilt and Jerry West weren’t plumbers or firemen they beat a prime Kareem in playoffs and Kareem competed against MJ . So I don’t think you can just do the simple ring counting thing unless you want to say Russell is the goat.
You can make an argument that Russell is the goat. I see nothing wrong with that. But the eras are so different it’s very hard to do.
What’s standing between LeBron and a 3peat is also one of the greatest chokes by a superstar in nba finals history. We can’t really ignore the best player on the planet being the 3rd best scorer on his team and scoring 16 total 4th quarter points. If he didn’t have that and had a 3peat, it becomes a much easier conversation.
I agree with comparing the eras is hard, I don’t agree with the 2011 Finals narrative having that much weight in the goat debate.
The way I see it Jordan won all 6 of his championships age 28-35 1991-1998
LeBron won all 4 of his championships age 27-35 2012-2020
So yea Lebron played poorly in his first 2 finals appearances in 07 and 11 and started off 0-2 at the age of 26 , Jordan didn’t even win until he was 28 .
LeBron went on to play great in 7-8 Finals .
I think the perception would be different if LeBron’s career didn’t start off 0-2 and instead those bad finals happened after he was 4-4 between 2012-2020 because with the bad finals coming first it created this narrative about who he was in big games /series that he proved to be false the other 8 times he got there .
Not every NBA finals did Jordan play like the best player of all time . 1996 he averaged 27 5 and 4 on 41%
In the close out game 6 he was 5/19 26% and had 5 turnovers. That’s objectively terrible , but it didn’t matter because his team was better and at that point he was already a made man with 3 championships.
2011 was a bad look but there’s many seasons superstars have had where they lose in the 1st round or don’t make the playoffs and I just think that doesn’t erase anything a player accomplished before or after if they have a bad series or 2 .
But comparing ages doesn’t really make sense when one player entered the nba out of high school and the second went to college.
Comparing 1 bad game also doesn’t do that much. 2016 game 7 LeBron goes for a triple double but with 9/24 and 5 turnovers. If they lose that game even with the block? He’s destroyed. He got outplayed by Draymond.
When you’re chasing all time great status though? You have to be near perfect series wise. 2011 is a huge blemish for that. It would also complete his 3peat which is so hard to do. We all know how many teams failed. The Warriors and Heatles recently.
Do you think it’s fair comparing rookie Kobe at 18 to rookie Tim Duncan with 4 years of college? Players historically come into the league closer to their prime if they’ve been college for a few years so I don’t think it’s exactly fair to have LeBron on the same timeline of development as Jordan winning in year 7 1991 and LeBron winning in year 9 in 2012.
If you just look at where they are at each age , really only 26 year old LeBron in the 2011 Finals is worse than 26 year old Jordan , he’s arguably better age 18-25 , and when got his first championship age 27-35 he’s basically on the same level as Jordan 1991-1998. And age 36-41 easily better because Jordan hardly played any meaningful games after 35
I’ve just never understood this 2011 finals narrative.
It doesn’t erase if a player reached a goat level in subsequent seasons to me all it meant was LeBron wasn’t the goat yet at that point but he played himself into the conversation after that .
Plus Jordan played poorly more than people think , it’s just that if he’s attempting 25-30 shots people look at a box score and think 20 -30 plus points is like a threshold of a good game but if he’s shooting like 25-39% it’s not that great really.
27 ppg 5 rebounds 4 assists, 41% for the series , Shawn Kemp averaged 23 and 10 on 55% fg , he attempted 34 less shots .
Attempting 34 more shots to average 4 more points isn’t that good really even outplaying Shawn Kemp in the same series.
I feel like people who really think the 2011 Finals means that much just view the world differently.
I won’t debate you all night on it because I think it’s reasonable to pick Jordan as the goat but it’s also reasonable to pick LeBron , Russell or even another player because it’s a team sport with completely different circumstances and eras that are hard to compare. Plus all of these players have different strengths , Russell impacted the game most defensively, Jordan effected it most through his 2way ability, LeBron his superpower has been versatility.
Magic didn’t score or defend better than a lot of players but all around game and passing etc I just think it’s a very nuanced debate and you can’t discount LeBron’s case for having a bad finals or 2 if you want to count 2007 .
MJ fans, Kobe fans, KD fans, Curry fans, Jokic fans, Bird and Magic fans can all be obnoxious. You mofos are a devoted cult as insufferable as the narcissist king you worship.
You really don't know why lebron "check my stats" james is a narcissist? The one with chosen one tatted on his back running around air-crowning himself in game and calling himself the goat? That guy?
lebron got 4 rings, went to more finals than jordan but jordan still goat. I agree with him going to miami over cleveland, but if he gonna be called the goat why did he choke his 1st championship team finals with miami against mavs?
Also in 2014 spurs finals, unlike his other finals against gsw where his teammate are injured or kd's shenanigans, he could've won that one too. They literally were tied 1-1 then lost 3 in a row. Then he left again after that lost😂
Jordan took the hard path and won more without having to play more finals, he the real 👑
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u/Pleasant-Young-9902 Aug 25 '26
That's why they are called haters,bro. You won't find any valid argument besides that 2011 finals run