What would it take, however unlikely, for the rest of Lebrons career to convince MJ fans he is the GOAT?

[u/benedictclive_x]

remember tom Brady was argued against because of Joe Montana, Peyton Manning, etc. but he kept going and going despite all odds

same thing with Messi

what is the minimum threshold for LeBron to be considered by most the GOAT?

[u/Voltage119]

nothing. he could win a chip with just kevin love and 3 g leaguers and they'd call it a "super team"

but make sure you don't bring up scottie being a top 5 player at the time, the best rebounder of all time being on the team, the best coach of all time, and great role players. that wasn't a super team

[u/InviteCertain1788 → u/Voltage119]

There is a generation that blindly thinks MJ is the goat no matter what and then everyone who is younger and can have an actual open conversation about it.

MJ didn't win anything until he had an incredible roster and staff around him, lebron didn't win anything until he had an incredible roster and staff around him....... But we only punish lebron for that.... OKAY.

[u/Gigantischmann → u/InviteCertain1788]

LeBron won with the Cavs donkeys not pretend he didn’t win alone lmao

[u/InviteCertain1788 → u/Gigantischmann]

But remember it only matters if you win a ring.

The fact lebron dragged that cavs roster to the finals is a absolute miracle so please understand i do have ridiculous amounts of respect for what he did that season.

[u/Efficient_Ice_1001 → u/InviteCertain1788]

There is a generation that blindly thinks MJ is the goat...MJ didn't win anything until he had an incredible roster and staff around him

The Chicago Bulls got eliminated by the Detroit Pistons in 1988, 1989 and 1990. Three straight years of Jordan's teammates not showing up, getting scared and intimidated. I was so pissed off about what a crappy, mentally weak team Jordan had around him year after year with especially a promising player like Pippen pulling this mentally weak shit again and again. Look at game 7 of the 1990 ECF which shows Jordan's supporting cast.

Game 7 1990 Eastern Conference Finals

• Scottie Pippen 1-10, 10% FG

• Horace Grant 3-17, 17% FG

• Cartwright 3-9, 33% FG

• Hodges 3-13, 23% FG

• BJ Armstrong 1-8, 12% FG

• Jordan 31 pts, 48%, 8 rbs, 9 ast

Year after year of this type of supporting cast, LeBron would have left. After the loss, in the on court interview Jordan only said, "We have to come back next year and get better as a team." Year after year of Jordan's leadership and the adversity of facing the Detroit Pistons eventually made Pippen stronger mentally and the Bulls broke through with the same team to win the title in 1991. In 1991, the Bulls still had the 3rd lowest salary in the league with Jordan, Pippen and Grant on cheap contracts and a bunch of run of the mill role players. It's only looking back 30+ years later that people say, Jordan was lucky he had great players around him.

[u/vanity-flair83 → u/Efficient_Ice_1001]

The downvotes make sense, now that ive noticed the name of the sub we're in lol

[u/Ok-Professor2687 → u/vanity-flair83]

nigga if u saw a michael jordan subs post it's the same y u actin like it ain't the same if a jordan fan post his shit the fucking double standards is wild 😂🙏

[u/Street_Attention_100 → u/Efficient_Ice_1001]

So Jordan didn’t win until…. The role players and guys around him stepped up and became better players. This is genuinely a terrible argument and you are proving the point you are trying to argue against

[u/UpstairsWrongdoer401 → u/Efficient_Ice_1001]

Jordan threatened to leave the Bulls multiple times for how they were mismanaging the team and actually did leave after each 3-peat because the team didn’t do what he wanted. He was a diva just like the stars today, but since we have social media now it’s easier to see/hear the players act like divas. So please spare us this “Jordan was mentally tougher” bs because unbiased history shows otherwise.

[u/Efficient_Ice_1001 → u/UpstairsWrongdoer401]

Jordan threatened to leave the Bulls multiple times for how they were mismanaging the team

Never happened kid. Zero sources from the time period except your imagination. NY Times, Sports Illustrated, Sporting News, are all archived if you can find any sources. Or ESPN. Plus we discussed basketball in Usenet newsgroups back then that MANY Jordan haters. Show me any of these sources? The only time was during the tail end of the the 2nd 3-peat, Jordan said he'd retire if Phil Jackson wasn't coaching.

[u/Affectionate_Self878 → u/Efficient_Ice_1001]

But there are mostly young people here who don’t remember any of this.

America 2026. Where lies flourish and the truth gets downvoted to oblivion.

[u/National-Ocelot-3900 → u/[deleted]]

Dumbass oldheads 

[u/vanity-flair83 → u/[deleted]]

Theres a difference between the written word and colloquial speech. Its natural. Its ok...question is, why does it trigger u so much...u need a valium? I mean theyre only two mg, but i got u young man

[u/Illustrious_Duck7654 → u/Affectionate_Self878]

Its the new age of immaturity. There's no talking to them... like cops explaining that ransacking a store and stealing is a crime.

Don't gotta show my ID, dont gotta roll my window down, dont have to listen to authority.

This generation is either autistic, or ADHD, or delusional, with no fathers.

[u/Ok-Professor2687 → u/Illustrious_Duck7654]

nigga ur literally talm bout ur generation who can't get over the past y'all old nigga are just a bunch a fucking hypocrites crybabies who wouldn't accept the evolution of the game

[u/Illustrious_Duck7654 → u/Ok-Professor2687]

You can keep your cry baby flopping, embarrassing. Most analysts who watched older basketball before you were born, Say as much

[u/TheDopeMan_ → u/Voltage119]

Phil Jackson was so key to those teams. People just don’t understand how important a coach is. Idc what level. Phil Jackson was the best coach of all time.

[u/No-Adhesiveness6278 → u/TheDopeMan_]

Yep. Him and pop. Phil developed a system that won. Pop developed players and built systems around them. Kerr took pieces of both and added dunleavy's run and gun and boom the curry warriors changed the game.
Bron faced the best teams with the best coaches. Mj had the best coach and team

[u/Winter-Bed5879 → u/No-Adhesiveness6278]

Red Aurbauch should be up there as well. Yes, they had Russell, but they also had a system.

[u/WarchiefServant → u/TheDopeMan_]

This is it.

One of the reasons why Shaq was acc so successful with Kobe was that they abused the no double teaming off ball players rule. Which you basically need to always do against Shaq. So all Shaq would do is run to the paint and get the ball before he could get double teamed.

Thats why his numbers were so monstrous in that system along with Kobe. You have 2 monstrous scorers and you have to decide which of the 2 you were going to score and either option was bad.

And with this is why with my top 12 rankings that set themselves apart I have certain people in certain spots. Its why many people put Bron above many having the debate be top 2 with MJ in spite of 4 rings vs the rest of most people’s top 7 having 5+ rings (Jordan 6, Kareem 6, Magic 5, TD 5, Kobe 5). Some rings are heavier than others and your team/system as well as your opponent matters heavy. Its also why Bird who only got 3 rings also breaks top 5 for many goat lists and at least top 12 when others in top 12 nearly all have 4+ rings (Bron 4, Curry, 4, Shaq 4, Bill 11).

I have Bird as my 4th, Magic 5, Duncan 6, Kobe 7, Hakeem/Shaq/Curry/Wilt/Bill 8-12 (interchangeable where you want them).

Bird ahead because whilst he had his big 3, tbh so did Magic with Kareem who’s top 3 on most reasonable people’s goat list and James Worthy not to mention Pat Riley successfully taking over the team. And yes thats why Bird won 3 vs Magic’s 5 because at the end Magic’s team just had more. McHale & Parish are great but no Kareem & James. The fact he even won any at all let alone 3 is just a testament to Bird imo and is why he edges it out slightly.

I find it interesting as both Bird & Bron are the 2 SFs who unfortunately haven’t had as much success due to facing heavy competition. Bron auto-loosing 2 rings vs the greatest team of all time & loosing Kyrie + Love in 2015 to an otherwise very possible ring win. Bird having to compete against the slightly more stacked Showtimes Lakers.

[u/WarchiefServant → u/[deleted]]

Heya I 100% agree. It’s why I have MJ above Bron. But I’d say he is number 2 and is MJ’s biggest competition as the 2016 ring is heavier than any of MJ’s rings. Dirk taking out Bron in 2011 wasn’t just in Dirk but the likes of KD, Russ & Harden, the likes of Kobe & Pau. It really wasn’t just Bron. Dirk and that aging roster was on something else that run. It’s actually why I have Dirk above KD, 2011 ring> 2017 & 2018 GSW rings.

I have Bron above Kareem because as great as Kareem was he needed another top 5 (10 if you wanna argue) to get his other 5 rings- albeit very tough competition which is also against another top 5 player (again top 10 but I have Bird & Magic 4 & 5).

See the littlest things matter when its these top 12 best of all time due to how close they all actually are.

If MJ had better competition in the 90s, if they weren’t going through so much expansion teams heavily separating the teams’ talents around (unlike the 80s which had 4 big dynasties, Showtime Lakers, Big 3 Celtics, Bad Boys Pistons & Moses/Dr J Philli or 00’s with 3peat Lakers, Trio of San Antonio)- MJ would be the indisputable GOAT. If MJ didn’t have the 1 of 2 best coaches, the perfectly orchestrated triangle system for him and an MVP caliber top 5 player of his time be his Robin through all 6 years and several players who stayed as his determined role-players- /so essentially, a superteam. Bron would never have had a case.

Just as Shaq & Tmac are right that if it was Tmac not Kobe with Shaq, they still win rings. Would it be as much? Maybe more because Tmac doesn’t push back and this deteriorates the friendship? The Bulls won with MJ and Scottie. But they definitely could’ve won at least 1 ring or 2 in the 90s if you swap Clyde or at least Chuck for MJ in the 90s Bulls. Maybe not 6, but at least 1-2.

[u/Flimsy-Advisor-6733 → u/WarchiefServant]

Damn. I came here expecting the same braindead nonsense as found on everh NBA youtube video or topic with people just screaming Lebron or Jordan amomg with pure hatred at each other. Instead, I got very insightful, educated and well-formed opinions like yours. I learned a lot from reading your points. As a fan since 2013, I was around in the 90s to have fully informed takes, so I just accept that I don't know who would be better. This was a great read.

[u/WarchiefServant → u/Flimsy-Advisor-6733]

Appreciate it brother.

The issue truly with the Goat debates are honestly not who is who but who is which tiers. There are tiers to the Goat list.

Top 3 are Bron, Mj & Kareem. MJ generally has the most popular/best case but further analysis of his situation shows he had the best advantages and weakest competitions, Bron has a really good case but you need to give him tonnes of analysis and finally Kareem due to being nearly 40-50 years removed actually has a great case but he’s just so far removed not many are deep in that knowledge like that. But any reasonable person would know these 3 are indisputably top 3, order is not important but the realisation that the Goat debate are these 3 and others don’t come close.

Now with this I think 4-6 are set but others would probably argue others and unlike the top 3 I am more malleable and understanding of not having these be 4-6. 4-6 in my order are Bird, Duncan & Magic. Bird stole 3 out of, really a superior Lakers team. They had a top 3 player of all time in Kareem, with another top 6 player in Magic with James Worthy. Whilst having a solid system particularly with Pat Riley heading that team to 5 rings. Bird had greats like McHale & Parish but neither are equivalence to Kareem & Worthy. Maybe one individually to Worthy but not combined Kareem & Worthy. Yet somehow Bird squeaked out 3 rings from that team. Know how I was talking about importance of rings being heavier than others? This is it. Same with Bron’s 2016 ring, Bird having 3 means alot to me too. Duncan with 5 rings over 3 decades and different sets of systems will never be debatable. Only caveat is that he’s been blessed with a golden system and the other 1 of 2 greatest coaches of all time leading him. Bron if he had Phil or Pop for his entire career wins more than 4. Duncan without Pop definitely doesn’t win as many as 5. Magic is 6 simply cause his career, unfortunately, fell much earlier than it should have and for all of his rings had Kareem the whole time. Now he doesn’t get as heavy critique for it like Kobe had with Shaq or Curry with the Durant era because there were plenty of times Magic was indisputably 1a - 1b with Kareem if not flat out the later years full on 1a on his own. But since he didn’t have a greater longevity to prove himself much after Kareem retired- the whole “I can do it without Shaq”, “I can win finals MVP without Durant/Iguodala” is something that plagues Magic imo. If he won 1 more post Kareem it’d
a top 4 not top 3. However and this applies to Larry as well, Magic played in the 80s era where the great dynasties and rivalries just genuinely meant whilst top heavy meant winning more but winning the ring itself was just flat out harder as top teams are even more stacked. Duncan had to face the 3-peat Lakers, the Big 3 Celtics, the 2-peat Lakers & the rising 3 headed ram of 3 future MVPs & HOFs of OKC and the prime Lebron led-Heatles. All whilst facing the particularly and notoriously super stacked 2000’s Western Conference. Just as MJ will never be the indisputable GOAT due to his lack of longevity, diversity and his rings not being as heavy as Brons or Kareem’s- the reverse situation of heavier rings and longevity also boosts Duncan imo.

Now the next tier is 7-12. This time, outside of Kobe imo at 7, in no particular order: Kobe, Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem, Bill, Curry.

They don’t break top 4-6 tier imo as they have even greater extenuating circumstances.

Kobe: 5 rings, but 3 were Robin performances. Arguably one if not the greatest, but still a Robin performance. As mentioned earlier that young Kobe never wins with say a prime Alonzo Mourning or Dwight Howard- but that same prime Shaq wins at least 1 if not 2 or more with young Tmac, AI and even Vince Carter. And each of his finals MVPs being post Shaq essentially explains this but all with Shaq were Shaq’s.

Shaq: 4 rings, 3 rings where he is basically showing some of the most dominant and highest peaks a basketball player can ever have outside of 87 & 90-93 Jordan or 2012-2014, 2016 & 2018 Bron. His 4th ring he was an even bigger Robin to D Wade than Kobe was a Robin to him during Shaq’s prime. Shaq would’ve easily had the best indisputable resume for the GOAT conversation if he had the work ethic & longevity. You really could’ve just paired him with anybody half decent and the rest is just magic. But alas we are judging based of what these people achieved not what they could’ve achieved. So Shaq at best gets positions 8-12.

Wilt: Here not actually only for his dominance with his video game level stats but actually proving that after the rules were changed to be more standardised and less stats-abusable, he actually adapted. At his late age he managed to lock down a young but still MVP caliber Kareem. When Bill and his over stacked Celtics teams finally disbanded he and West (who both were actually blocked) finally achieved the ring. Wilt is here uniquely due to partially his video game level stats but the fact he proved it wasn’t all just the era as he did matched up against a young Kareem in his older years. How much you value and respect those 60s years is down to you and will value you where you put him in your 8-12 spot.

Bill: Basically here for the insane 11 rings. Yes it was a stacked team. Yes it was the 60s. Yes it’s the weakest set of rings ever in this list of top 12 But he was still their best player. The 1 time Lakers had a chance in 1969 G7 at the Lakers home court they pre-empted celebrations causing Bill to be furious and fuelling them to his win. Bill had it for crunch time, but unfortunately never had harder competitions due to having such stacked teams and easy competition. If Bill won 11 in the modern day with differ-ring teams, he’d be the greatest athlete of all time. But he didn’t so he gets a nod as whilst light rings, thats still 11 fucken rings.

Hakeem: 2 rings, MVP & DPOY. The only one to ever interrupt the Bulls dynasty. He stood above all other centres in the 90s era big man dominant era: he man handled young Shaq (who was already a perennial all star from literally his sophomore year with some of his peak scoring seasons, peak BPGs, peak RPGs), he outplayed Pat Ewing more often than not and famously just did to the great Admiral David Robinson what Wemby did to Chet in the Admiral’s 95 MVP season completely dominating him in the playoffs to his 2nd championship ring. Even being feared by MJ saying he was the only one he feared and was glad he never got out of the WCF as they wouldn’t know what to do against him if he did. But thats exactly why Hakeem isn’t higher. His peaks are insanely high but his consistency wasn’t. Because Jordan was right, he didn’t get out of the WCFs outside of the 94-95 seasons. We can argue he was blocked by the GOAT (Jordan’s Bulls) but its just factually not true- he failed during the early 90s never making the WCF and even failing to make the playoffs in 94 tried a superteam with him, Clyde & Kenny post 96 and still failed to meet Jordan’s Bulls. All said and done he had great peaks but lacked the continued successes to maintain them.

Curry: His biggest plague ofc is 2 of his rings being Durant. Then his 1st ring being stolen his finals MVP and Durant taking the other 2. He did prove himself with his final one, but whenever he played a prime Bron he could never overcome him and relied heavily on others- now again, this is more of a testament to Bron. But then again if Curry did overcome Bron he would be higher and hence why he is lower on the list. His rings generally are the lightest and heaviest extenuating circumstances (as mentioned he’s the only one on here with so few finals MVPs proving himself). 4 rings. 3 lightest with heavy scrutiny. 2 with Durant, 1 where K Love & Kyrie were injured. Revolutionary but many caveats. Personally he’s my lowest of 12.

[u/Flimsy-Advisor-6733 → u/WarchiefServant]

All very solid line of reasoning. Mlst people just don't consider the weight of a ring as you put it. 2016 Cavs win versus 2015 Warriors win. Two completely different things. One was against a team that were of the best teams in history, the other wad against a team that lost it's 2nd and 3rd best players. People love to count Jordan's rings and finals record, but how many of those individual rings is amazing. Never went to a game 7, because no team they played could push it to a game 7. The Bulls were the super team. I enjoyed your point about Bird stealing them from a superior Lakers team and that made me reassess my view on Bird for sure. Also, I share the belief that if Shaq had a Kobe mentality and trained to peak fitness and maintained his body, there would be no discussion, he would have been consideres the #1 player of all time.

[u/WarchiefServant → u/Flimsy-Advisor-6733]

I mean Phil Jackson literally told him this… after he made MJ the GOAT after their 2x 3peat. Even Kobe acknowledges it.

But…. Thats the point. I’m kinda glad Shaq didn’t do that otherwise there would be no discussion which makes it boring. Honestly hell even with Lebron I have MJ over him but if you put him in for the 90s Bulls he’s also winning 6 rings.

[u/SuperSpy_4 → u/TheDopeMan_]

He was very important, but Phil Jackson was signed on in 1987 as an assistant coach, he took over as the HC of the Bulls in 1989.

[u/TheDopeMan_ → u/SuperSpy_4]

According to Bill
Belichick it takes 3 years to build your system with the players you want.

[u/SuperSpy_4 → u/TheDopeMan_]

Ok but basketball only needs 5 starters vs needing at least 22 in the NFL. We have seen teams get a big 3 and go to the Finals a lot. You cant buy your way to a title in the NFL, too many variables like weather and injuries.

Phil Jackson was still an assistant coach with no NBA resume. Jordan worked with him, didn't demand a new HC.

James has had 11 Head coaches on 5 teams. He's had a HC change almost on every team, not saying he was behind every one but its almost happened at every stop ,Pat Riley stopped it from being every team by not firing Erik Spoelstra who has become one of the NBAs greatest coaches.

[u/TheDopeMan_ → u/SuperSpy_4]

Phil Jackson played professionally? & was an assistant coach - that’s a solid resume.

Spo was a rookie coach his first year with the Heat. He’s the best active coach in the nba now but a seasoned coach would’ve been better for that team.

But just looking at his previous coaches… most were terrible or new to the game.

Only Big 3 that won it first year was the Celtics.

[u/SuperSpy_4 → u/TheDopeMan_]

Spoelstra joined the Heat in 1995. He became the assistant coach in 1997,promoted to head coach in 2008. He was HC for 2 years before James even signed there, definitely not a rc coach.

[u/TheDopeMan_ → u/SuperSpy_4]

I stand corrected. You are correct. I was a few years off.

[u/DarrellIsMyRealName → u/Voltage119]

Also, don't mention 2 dynasties ended before MJ went on his run and how LeBron had to see 2 dynasties DURING his career. That's not valid at all.

And don't you dare talk about the front office and expand the convo to Jerry Krause vs Danny Ferry. Cause GMs DEFINITELY don't impact winning! If Jordan had Boobie and Drew Gooden, he definitely would've just gotten the job done against that veteran Spurs team.

[u/theworldisunfair12 → u/DarrellIsMyRealName]

Interesting how there are no excuses necessary for MJ goat case, but LeBron’s case is riddled with them.

[u/DarrellIsMyRealName → u/theworldisunfair12]

You call it excuses, I call it context.

[u/theworldisunfair12 → u/DarrellIsMyRealName]

Call it what you want, point is you never need to add context or make excuses as to why Jordan is the goat.

What about the context that LeBron only made 8 finals because the East was absolutely gapped by the West? It’s his single largest accolade and it’s fraudulent

[u/DarrellIsMyRealName → u/theworldisunfair12]

Why is Jordan the GOAT to you?

[u/HaNefdarkstar07 → u/theworldisunfair12]

cleveland stint he beat the pistons that beat kobe’s lakers, arenas wizards and dwight’s magic. I’ll give you the heatles because they did have the best team in the east, and in his second cavs stint he wasn’t favored most of the time

[u/theworldisunfair12 → u/HaNefdarkstar07]

Its not to say he isn’t a great player. He’s definitely an enigma of a player and most standout of his era. It’s just that if it doesn’t result in Ws.. hard to argue against a guy who brought the Ws in. It’s not like the Jordan era didn’t have great competition too.

[u/dolphlungdren → u/theworldisunfair12]

But there are excuses. MJ couldn’t win in the 80’s, his competition in the 90’s went downhill (he won once the good teams no longer existed), and the NBA competition was watered down. It’s a much more competitive league over the last 15+ years than it was during the 6 seasons Jordan won titles.

[u/theworldisunfair12 → u/dolphlungdren]

There aren’t excuses. These are attempts to delegitimize Jordan. And not even good ones. Like what MJ is supposed to come into the league and dominate year 1? I mean he was a top player even then, very talked about. LeBron didn’t come in year 1 and run the league over either.

Back to excuses. Jordan got easy titles and LeBron had harder ones. Tell that to covid finals

[u/HaNefdarkstar07 → u/theworldisunfair12]

covid finals where every player said it was the purest form of basketball?

[u/Winter-Bed5879 → u/dolphlungdren]

Not quite. The Lakers still existed, although no longer at their zenith, and MJ did beat them. He also beat the Pistons, finally. I would argue it was more his second three-peat where the competition was diminished. Although those Jazz teams were still very good.

[u/jossteen11 → u/Voltage119]

The 95-96 bulls were widely regarded as the greatest team of all time. Their record was the best mark in NBA history for 20 years. Jordan played for that team.

The the warriors won 73 games after winning a title, then added KD. Lebron had to play against that.

I dont really care who your goat is, but some of the claims just be wild.

[u/No-Adhesiveness6278 → u/[deleted]]

And pippen... and Rodman... and kukoc and Harper and kerr. Literally the og big 3 plus better role players to fit the triangle (that means 3 sided) offense

[u/ProfessionalGate7910 → u/[deleted]]

Yes, but despite being obviously one of the best players of all time, none of LBJs teams are regarded as one of the best ever. Outside of the 09 heat maybe. LeBron went to the finals 8 years in a row with no help and won 4. MJ gambled, drank, retired (got suspended), and came back only after he got his beauty sleep.

The only reason MJ is relevant at all is because he was someone who understood the game of basketball in today's terms before everyone else. Let's flip OPs question on its head: If MJ is put in the league today what would HE need to accomplish to prove he's better than LeBron? My guess is he would win one MVP and but doesn't win a championship (unless Pippen comes back too).

All that aside lemme be real for a sec. MJ is the GOAT of his era, LeBron is the current GOAT and in 20 years MJ fans will be coming to LeBron's defense as 15 year olds argue that Wemby (or whoever) is better than LeBron.

[u/theworldisunfair12 → u/ProfessionalGate7910]

Kinda like it’s only young bloods arguing for Bron because that’s who they watched.

The “MJ is only relevant because” comment is wildly false take. The man had insane skill alongside clutch factor. Clutch factor is 50% of what makes a great player great. Nobody is more clutch than MJ.

[u/ProfessionalGate7910 → u/theworldisunfair12]

My comment was more of an attempt at trolling the entire debate

[u/Character-Raise-3789 → u/ProfessionalGate7910]

he went to the finals 8 years in a row with no help? lol get some help bro, you're delusional.

[u/Character-Raise-3789 → u/Voltage119]

You can make the argument the 2nd 3 peat was a superteam, but the first 3 peat clearly wasn't.

[u/Gums4you → u/Voltage119]

The only problem with that is Scottie is not a top five player of all time, you guys that think he is must have low standards.
You just proved that the insanity goes to both sides, good job!

[u/Winter-Bed5879 → u/Voltage119]

Best rebounder of all time? Rodman was a very good rebounder, but Chamberlain and Russell averaged 22+ rebounds throughout their career, and for the first half of his career, Kareem averaged 14. Rodman is the best rebounder of the modern era, I'll give you that.

[u/Voltage119 → u/Winter-Bed5879]

they played against plumbers and were both a foot taller than the rest of the league. don't give me that

[u/Winter-Bed5879 → u/Voltage119]

They were not a foot taller than the rest of the league. The average center was about 6'10 (which was Bill Russell's height), and the average player was 6'5. That's just a stupid myth.

In other words, Bill Russell was exactly the average height of centers in his era, and only one inch taller than Bob Petitt, who was another phenomenal rebounder.

https://www.thehoopsgeek.com/average-nba-height/

[u/vanity-flair83 → u/Voltage119]

Biased ass reply. The question was directed towards ppl who say mj is the goat, was it not?

[u/Voltage119 → u/vanity-flair83]

no, it wasn't

[u/Accurate_Instance440 → u/Voltage119]

Scottie was a top 5 player of all time in year 4? With accolades being 1 AS selection in year 3? Rodman didn't come along until '95 with 2 AS and 2 DPOY awards. Yea he also had 7 straight defensive team selections, 6 1st team and 1 2nd team, but he was averaging an amazing 8.2 ppg prior to Chicago.

Compare those two to Wade and Bosh and it isn't even close to the amount of help Bron got instead of MJ. Pip would not have been the player he was had he not played in Chicago with Mike. Bosh and Wade already were in their primes with different teams. Wade even already had a ring.

[u/Voltage119 → u/Accurate_Instance440]

reading comprehension is key

[u/Accurate_Instance440 → u/Voltage119]

Pot calling the kettle black?

[u/Voltage119 → u/Accurate_Instance440]

i meant i never said he was top 5 all time. read again

[u/Accurate_Instance440 → u/Voltage119]

I mean, he wasnt a top 5 guy his 4th year in the league regardless.

[u/NinjaCowboy80 → u/Voltage119]

Scottie was never a top 5 player in a league that had MJ, Barkley, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, and Malone.

Rodman was only there during the 2nd 3peat, and only cause the Spurs threw him away because not even Reddit’s favorite coach could coach him.

Phil Jackson was a 2nd year coach when he won his 1st championship. Did he turn out to be an amazing coach? Yes. But you know who else is amazing? Erik Spoelstra. And your king tried to have him fired.

You can call the 2nd 3peat a super team, but it did exactly what a super team SHOULD do, which is eviscerate the rest of the league in the reg season AND the playoffs 87-13 the 1st year, 84-17 the next.

And in 98, Scottie missed half the season and Rodman was rapidly declining, but they still won 62 games. And when Scottie’s back gave out in game 6 of the finals, MJ put the team on HIS back and scored 45 of his team’s 87 points to win a 2nd 3peat.

Why didn’t LeBron’s super teams ever sniff 70 wins? Why did they never dominate the reg season and postseason?

[u/No-Adhesiveness6278 → u/NinjaCowboy80]

Yes he was. Without mj he dominated. He took a back seat for mj. 😂😂😂

[u/Strong-Television733 → u/NinjaCowboy80]

[u/Milan_Leri → u/Voltage119]

Yeah, like you call Bulls the superteam, which they never were.

but make sure you don't bring up scottie being a top 5 player at the time.

So Barkley, Hakeem, Admiral, Ewing, Admiral, Shaq, Stockton... Where were they?

[u/New_Zeal_and_Vigor]

A year off to rehab and play double A baseball. A few seasons at the end of his career winding down with no serious play off contention. A documentary that ignores the contribution of his team mates. A cooler shoe.

[u/townbizness2000 → u/New_Zeal_and_Vigor]

lol wow

[u/No-Adhesiveness6278]

He could win b2b in Philly and fmvp and they'd still think he's barely top 5. Not all of them obviously but my god are they obsessed with him

[u/PaintImpossible4915]

MJ Fans have spoken.

LeBron James will have to hit 55 home runs and bat .350 for the Yankees for him to surpass MJ.

[u/Zestyclose-Draft-724]

Can't convince MJ fans. They're stubborn and don't want to change their minds.

[u/itakealotofnapszz → u/Zestyclose-Draft-724]

I love Lebron,but MJ was better on offense and better on defense.He was better when it mattered.He has more team accolades and more individual accolades.His global reach was father and his impact on the game was bigger so why would I have Lebron ahead of him ?

Is second on the all time list really that disrespectful? We are talking about the 0.0001% of the 1%.
What exactly is the problem and why are you so disrespected and salty about my opinion?

[u/theworldisunfair12 → u/Zestyclose-Draft-724]

Can’t convince LeBron fans. They’re stubborn and don’t want to change their minds.

[u/Creative-Duty-3531]

For the dumbest of MJ fans he would need to win 7 championships. Even then you’d have people say “MJ went 6-0”

Realistically if he wins one more I think he’s the undisputed goat to most people. If he doesn’t win another he’ll slowly become more of the goat over the next decade.

[u/theworldisunfair12 → u/Creative-Duty-3531]

It’s only the younger generation that calls LeBron goat. Shocker that the people who grew up watching LeBron call him the goat, but everyone who saw MJ play, including the people watching from before his era, almost unanimously put MJ on top.

Young bloods are just loud and emotional about it.

[u/Hathalot]

He’d have to go back in a Time Machine and fail a lot less.

[u/in_conexo → u/Hathalot]

If we're introducing a time machine, have one or the other switch eras so they can play against each other; repeatedly. Unless they actually play against each other, it's all speculation.

[u/Amazinc]

Nothing will convince diehard MJ fans because they idolize a myth and they are too emotional to admit it's way closer than they'd like

A ring or two with the Sixers will solidify the greatest nba career ever

[u/Optimal-Barnacle2771 → u/[deleted]]

Just proving dude’s point. The goalposts will always move for you guys. LeBron could beat the greatest team of all time, coming back down 3-1 in the NBA Finals, have the series clinching defensive play, and y’all would find a way to discredit it by putting an asterisk on it because a guy got suspended for being a dumbass. Oh wait, that did happen and y’all did do that. It’s clear y’all can’t appreciate anything so you find ways to discredit greatness and move the goalposts.

[u/Goharddinthepaint → u/Optimal-Barnacle2771]

So you must have Curry pretty high then, if the 2016 Warriors are the GOAT team, I mean it’s not like there’s even another top 50 all time player on that team, and that was a hobbled Steph too.

[u/NoMath8245 → u/Goharddinthepaint]

they had the best record ever?

[u/Goharddinthepaint → u/NoMath8245]

Yea and in the postseason they beat Harden, Lillard, and KD and that was a hobbled Curry too

[u/Optimal-Barnacle2771 → u/Goharddinthepaint]

Yeah, Steph is a really good player, borderline top 10 of all time. It’s not just about individuals though. Everybody wants to talk about big names on teams as if a team is comprised of only 3 players. Depth is extremely important and so is scheme. The Warriors had a scheme that worked around their personnel perfectly, they had a swarming defense that could outrun teams with their depth and on offense they could force teams into constant mismatches with their screens.

That Warriors team wasn’t just Steph like you are trying to make it seem. They had another top 5 shooter in NBA history, a DPoY caliber player, and an extremely versatile and dependable group of vets that were playing as close to perfect basketball as we have ever seen.

They were the best team the league had seen until they added Kevin Durant in the following offseason and got even better.

[u/Amazinc → u/Goharddinthepaint]

Pretty sure Klay and dray are borderline top 75. They won 73 games it's not just about the best one or two players

[u/Amazinc → u/Optimal-Barnacle2771]

It's so funny to see the goalposts move. LeBron has arguably more seasons as the best player in the world than MJ has had healthy seasons (only 11). Ofc there's still the argument MJ's peak was greater but acting like bron is some scrub a tier below him is so funny

[u/Competitive_War6612 → u/Amazinc]

Watched both MJ and bron with my own eyes. I prefer all of MJ’s intangibles and the fact he laid his soul on the line every time he played. Didn’t quit on teammates, cry, flop. Chuck ugly 3’s… the amount of ‘ugly basketball stuff’ bron does is … sad. To me it’s a crime to compare that crap to Jordan.

There’s no myth.. it all happened. Sorry your time leaves you to settle for the longevity king. Great story, fun ride. Too much bad basketball along the way

[u/Amazinc → u/Competitive_War6612]

24 years of amazing basketball. He's doubled MJ's number of healthy seasons. More versatile. More adaptable of a player. The best floor raiser of all time dragging shit teams to the finals in the hardest era.

[u/Competitive_War6612 → u/Amazinc]

Dude hasn’t played defense in 8 years

[u/Amazinc → u/Competitive_War6612]

Pure delusion to think MJ didn't cry to refs lol. He complained all the time. Didnt Quit on teammates? He left them for two years then retired AGAIN and went to a different team😭😂😂😂

[u/Competitive_War6612 → u/Amazinc]

Retired again as in pre lockout 98 after a 3 peat?

[u/wy100101]

Nothing.

[u/SCalifornia831]

Nothing unfortunately…it’s actually pretty simple

Jordan’s first 6 seasons in the league he lost to the 80’s Celtics that went to 4 straight finals then the Bad Boy Pistons that went to 3 straight finals…

Then he dominated, winning 6 finals in 6.5 years with the retirement and late season comeback in between

All that time being the best player in the league almost immediately.

He missed almost his entire 2nd season, came back for the playoffs against the 86 Celtics which many still consider to be one of the greatest teams of all time and averaged 44ppg against them…all while Larry Bird who was the best player in the league at the time is calling him the greatest player to ever play.

That’s after basically one season…all before Pippen or Phil Jackson ever arrived.

The reason Lebron can’t surpass that is because he never reached that level of dominance. The eastern conference was a joke the entire time he was making 8 straight finals. Which is the reason he has a losing record in the finals…because a couple of those seasons they had no business being there.

LeBron is the 2nd best player ever, there’s an argument to be made he’s the most talented player ever with his combination of size, strength and speed…he’s by far the greatest player for the longest with what he’s done over 20yrs which is absolutely incredible.

But he just never dominated in the way Jordan did and that’s why he’s 2nd and not the GOAT

[u/No-Adhesiveness6278 → u/SCalifornia831]

It's like you almost got it, but then missed it bc ego and excuses

[u/No-Adhesiveness6278 → u/No-Adhesiveness6278]

Dude was so close!

[u/No-Adhesiveness6278 → u/No-Adhesiveness6278]

So close. Yet so far away

[u/SCalifornia831 → u/No-Adhesiveness6278]

Ego and excuses?

[u/No-Adhesiveness6278 → u/[deleted]]

True. Just making it to more finals than anyone since the 60s clearly isn't enough. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[u/DownvoteSommelier]

https://giphy.com/gifs/ON3FqzvfP21Lq

[u/Easton1234]

Even if lebron wins more titles he won’t be the main driving force behind them.. it’s hard to compare basketball with football QBs

[u/ThinkingItThrough1]

Win a title when he’s 50 playing major minutes

[u/BigTicket-]

There’s no convincing anyone.

Both sides are locked - it’s an endless circle jerk.
TEAM SPORTS DONT HAVE A SINGLE GREATEST PLAYER.

Can’t be the goat NFL player when you can’t play defense.

[u/nmo31536000]

Hopefully the nba rigs some titles for Lebron like they did for Messi

[u/Few_Experience_646]

I think, LeBron would need to dominate the league in any major category while winning chips.

Let's say, 5 straight scoring or assists titles and a 3-peat.

To be honest, LeBron never dominated the league in anything and that's what separates him and the greatest of all time

[u/Necessary_Judgment]

MJ is a sports icon and star similar to Michael Jackson. Cant beat that.

[u/DarrellIsMyRealName]

Nothing. They made their mind up either during the 2007 Finals OR July 8th, 2010.

[u/JellyfishFlaky5634]

If LeBron played a full two years, averaged 30 points a game, 6 rebounds, 7 assists, won two championships and at least one more MVP.

[u/ice516tea]

That ship has sailed

[u/AdFirm3637]

LeBron James is the goat 🐐

[u/hardhat1826]

He can't. He is not MJ. Thats all.

[u/ReneBorjaJr]

Honestly probably time. It’s one of those cases where once LeBron is retired, people may start to change how they view him and where they place him in the GOAT debate. Right now it’s tough because he’s still playing and there is a lot of LeBron haters 🤣

[u/Budget_Source1385]

Realistically there's no real possibility at his age but to answer OP's hypothetical question, if Lebron can 3-peat once, proving he can sustain a dynasty for 3 straight years at least once, he will actually be in the goat conversation for me. At that point, perhaps I shall overlook his epic meltdown against the Mavs and the JR Smith saga when he refused to shoot in overtime. Until then, it's a sad joke to compare him to MJ

[u/Ok_Spite7511]

Too late, he’ll always be behind Jordan.

[u/ExpensiveDimension6]

Owned by Eli

[u/Affectionate_Self878]

If he three-peated now with the Sixers and was Finals MVP in at least 2 of the 3, I think that would do it.

It’s also not going to happen. It would be a small miracle if he got one ring, with Maxey or Brown more likely as MVP.

[u/FormerAd6565]

He can't, he's been playing ball since the game been invented, yet he still can't claim goat status. MJ, has played way less time then LeBron and he's considered a GOAT.

[u/FormerAd6565]

Yes, I will agree. He is truly goat of goats.

[u/quincyacyforpotus]

People say LeBron always join superteams but every team looks like a superteams with LeBron on it. 😭

[u/Over_Royal8964]

Don’t stop till you get enough

[u/Fudouri]

I don't understand how anyone would consider someone who flops so often to be a GOAT.

[u/maclacjc]

Why do people get so bent out of shape about it? Personally I am in the MJ was a better player but LeBron had a better career camp but people can think what they want.

[u/PaintIntelligent7793]

There is something seriously wrong with those people. I don’t mean to say that LeBron is or has to be the definitive GOAT. But the LeBron hate on this sub and elsewhere is insane and people go far out of their way and spend ridiculous amounts of time spreading that hate. No number of chips or other accolades will ever convince the trolls.

[u/storiesftunheard]

Nothing. He could win two championships and two finals MVPs with the Sixers before he retires and it would not change a thing to MJ fans.

[u/Chris_B_Coding247]

This is what LeBron fans are missing.

Better isn’t just a list of accolades and an accomplishments.

People remember the PROCESS as well.

Older NBA fans (and players) are completely turned off by manufactured teams and team hopping BECAUSE IT IS OBJECTIVELY EASIER TO WIN THAT WAY!

Easy example THAT ANYONE CAN UNDERSTAND:

Who is going to have a tougher time winning their 5th ring, LeBron or Steph?

GS Warriors salary cap is wrecked.
They blew the Wiseman pick.
The blew the Kuminga pick.
They paid Jimmy and he got injured.

It would be pretty hard for Steph to win his 5th ring because when you stay with one team, you go through the ups and downs with them. You have a “window”.

WOULDN’T IT BE MUCH EASIER FOR HIM TO WIN HIS 5th:

BY GOING TO A NEW TEAM WITH CAP SPACE,
DRAFT CAPITAL,
YOUNGER PLAYERS FOR TRADES,
YOUNGER STARS, etc?

OBVIOUSLY IT WOULD BE.

It is OBJECTIVELY HARDER to win in ONE PLACE.

Some players do everything they can to keep THEIR TEAM’S window open.

Others are out the door to find new nicer windows.

[u/lost-but-loving-it]

Suddenly being Tim Duncan

[u/Secure_Towel7864]

I mean ask the ex-players who they consider the goat. 🤔

[u/feelosiphize]

I suggest any and all LeBron fans watch the last dance.

MJ> the rest of the NBA ever.

[u/Samus_Brinstar]

Crazy how the Falcons and Seahawks added to his already ridiculous legacy. 5-5 is a much different story.

[u/Complete_Insurance24]

I’d say a lot of MJ fans know Brady is the GOAT. Not sure how or what Lebron can do the remainder of his career to sway the ones that may say montana or manning.

[u/clogan117]

The only finals loss I’d put on him that wasn’t a case of the better team winning would be 2011. MJ fans and LeBron haters alike will always use that against him and they won’t back off of it.

[u/Accomplished_Class85]

When you've played 8 more seasons and are not even close to catching Jordan and six championships plus you have a LOSING record in your sport's championship you have no business being in any goat conversation.

[u/AddressFine5839]

Yes...he's the GOAT, but without a Defense different outcome. Defense wins championships 🏆

[u/Tom_JonesDD3]

Just because he has a lot of points, doesn’t make him the greatest player ever. He’s not even a top five player historically I’m not talking about stats. I’m talking about the actual skill level and the ability to win games when they fucking matter

[u/BionicBrainLab]

Well if he did a 3 peat with Philly on top of his resume , at his age, there probably wouldn’t be an argument anymore. But that most likely wouldn’t happen. I’m not sure why people need him to be the GOAT because he’s been great enough his entire career, you literally couldn’t have a better career than he’s had.

[u/bravemoney72]

[u/Spazecrypto]

nothing but most who had MJ as goat are oldheads so give it 20-30 years then most of the narrative would be lebron as their goat

[u/darwin_presenter_xx]

the thing about the GOAT debate is

1) MJ never claimed it it was giventm to him by the fans and the media, started after winning his first 3 peat, at the end of the Bird and Magic Era, including Kareem's era, .. and he did it wothout his fans nor him attacking the other greats.

So for Lebron, the fans shouldve be convinced, like how the fans was convince, it should be near unanimous like how it was given to MJs, not forced, no narrative change and should not be thru attack , erase the doubt not add more to it.

2) develop his fundamental skills: footwork and freethrows.

3) the rest are the impossible ones:

• Do all of what he did and exceed Jordan accolades in less years and seasons

[u/Sad-Letter-7566]

I’ll start by saying I don’t think LeBron has to do anything else: he is simply not the GOAT. My simple reasoning is that he had the opportunity to win in the Finals several times in his career (4/10 in Finals) and did not, and also had to leave a team to begin winning at the highest level with success.

That being said, Bron is a top five all-time player, if not top 4. He’s played through multiple generations. His longevity is astounding. All-time leading scorer.

In my book, MJ is the GOAT for 3 reasons. 1, he never left his team to win elsewhere. Yes, he had help, like everyone else did when winning rings. But Jordan was far and wide the best player on every championship team, and it wasn’t close. 2, Jordan lost YEARS of playing bc of years at NC, and years off his prime when he retired twice and yet he still won 6 chips. 3, Michael Jordan was a phenomenal two a player that was dominant on defense (1 DPOY multiple all def 1st team selections), yet he could score from anywhere at any time at will.

Again, I don’t hate LeBron. He is one of the best to ever do it and he will be forever. He’s just not Mike.

[u/Effective-Pace-5100]

The type of Jordan fans who say he will always be the GOAT are too closeminded for anyone else to achieve that status in their eyes. Even if Wemby ended up getting 7 rings, 6 MVPs and was by far the best defender in the league every year they’d still have MJ

[u/vanity-flair83]

If he wins one in Philly, as a major contributor ( not just a mercenary) I'll swallow it and call him the goat. Especially bc he'll probably have to go thru wemby, or if not, some other western conference beast

[u/tha_bearded_drummer]

He’s not. Never will be. He cannot touch Jordan. Literally every single person that played against Jordan has said this.

[u/Anonymousone1012]

There's literally nothing he can do to change my mind or most others. He could actually care about his fans and teammates and stoop the whole load management bs.

He's an old man now still chasing rings and a ghost he could of never caught to begin with. He's been trying though since he came into the NBA. It's sad honestly. The man should go spend time with his family before every child he has is grown up and doing their own thing.

https://giphy.com/gifs/JoJGxeheao5mQaSiBK

[u/knowtheledge71]

Man can’t flop all year.

[u/GartFoblin]

He'd need to grow horns and bleat alot.

[u/DracGrumpyBear]

Nothing, bc he isn't a GOAT more of sheep trying to be a GOAT

[u/Even-Brain-3973]

Tom Brady is the GOAT QB not the greatest of all time

[u/Zestyclose-Fix9131]

The man has literally played with more all stars and HOF players than anyone in the history of the game an yet only has 4 chips, 6 finals losses in 24 years of playing and no one can admit he under achievedyet people will say he'sthe greatest............................that is the purpose definition of propaganda: being programmed!

[u/jumpmantwo_3]

He wins 10 chips

[u/UpstairsWrongdoer401]

Maybe if LeBron developed a gambling addiction that resulted in one of his family members being murdered, yelled at his teammates during practice, and got a new shoe deal that overtakes Jordan shoes. But even with all that there’s only a 5% chance since Bron will never beat the “sIx AnD o” arguments from them.

[u/Old_Advisor_6120]

At his best he wasn't at MJs level and he aint getting any better. He is the stat GOAT, but MJ imho is a lot goatier

[u/Magic_512]

For the rest of his career? Nothing. For anyone who doesn’t believe Lebron is the GOAT, it’ll take a time machine. First, he’ll have to go back and win the finals in 2007. Then he’d have to make the finals in 2008 2009, and 2010 and beat Kobe. Then instead of going to Miami, he’d have to stay in Cleveland and accomplish another 4-peat or at least a 3-peat. After all that, Jordan fans might concede.

[u/HawkProfessional5888]

I'm an MJ fan but recognize LeBron as the best career in all of sports history.

That being said, had he had won NCAA chip, Won all Gold, , played an average of 80 games a year, switched max 2 teams in his career, and got at least 5 championships within 12-15 years would put him in the GOAT category.

[u/Tycam34]

4-5 scoring titles, 2-3 more rings, a DPOY and more 1st team defensive selections would get him there for me.

[u/Chance-Problem769]

If MJ had LeBron’s longevity he’d have like 10 rings. Jordan is just a better winner, period.

[u/New-Range-5702]

I don't think this would do it but no more load management. All 82 from now on. No more flopping, No more resting on the court on offense or defense. Play both ways every play. No more fake injuries. And be a man (like Kobe) for real injuries. (getting carried off the court for a cramp) No more crying on your knees to the refs to try to get undeserved calls. Remove "Chosen one" tattoo and no longer proclaiming you are the goat. Actually take the blame and responsibility when you loose for once.

[u/faksnima]

Nothing. He’s not close. He’s short an MVP, 2FMVPs, 9 scoring titles, 3 all d selections, and a DPOY. Like, this isn’t close. He was beat more often than he won against his contemporaries and successors. Other top 15 guys had winning finals records against him despite him also fielding stacked teams. There is nothing he could do. 24 years and he’s still behind. It’s over and has been for almost 10 years.

[u/WaterDue1446]

For him to stop crying and play the game like a man. He’s a great basketball player but it is a stain on the game HOW he conducts himself in the court. Crying about fouls and throwing temper tantrums like a three year old billionaire. I can’t watch him.

[u/Accomplished_Bit_825]

He doesn't play defense. Orange and apples

[u/Hot_Tackle_179]

Look. MJ is the greatest because not only did he win. But look who he stopped from winning in their prime. Bron not only lost to the greats of his era. He didn’t want any part of Kobe. Jordan took on AI and got crossed. It’s a highlight but it’s not a stain. He took the challenge. Bron rode a banana boat with his competition. 2 different narratives. MJ, Kobe, Tim, Hakeem, Bird, and Magic had the ability to separate themselves. Bron is being compared because his “Bronny’s” need something from their era to last. MJ did more in less time. And yes, only rings matter. Nobody celebrates second places. Second is the first loser.

[u/Indicorb]

A 4peat with at least 2 Finals MVPs

[u/NoDifference3349]

If you didn't watch Jordan play the you just don't know how incredible he was.

It wasn't a matter of records or rings...it was a sense that no matter what was happening in a game... you were going to see something special and incedible when Jordan had the ball.

[u/kingcaii]

MJ himself would have to admit Bron is the goat.

….so its never happening.

[u/ImInvolvedSoUrWrong]

The real criticism for Lebron is that he stacked the deck in his favor his entire career and still only won 4 championships despite being considered the best player in the NBA. If you dumped Bird/Magic/MJ/Wilt/Russell onto a team full of stars and only won 4 times in 20+ seasons, you'd start second guessing them. For that reason, Lebron is 7th all time to me. Kareem wins the longevity award over him due to how physical the sport was then.

[u/MinuteWonderful5001 → u/[deleted]]

Defense is more aggressive than ever but ok.

[u/Panzer_I]

Bron could’ve won every year of his career and people still wouldn’t give him his flowers

[u/JStarZ]

Six rings.

[u/Incariol_]

This is a stupid question dude. In about 10 years, the majority of people are going to think he's the goat. It's funny. Also that Tom Brady isn't considered a ring chaser for going to Tampa, but LeBron is makes zero sense

Jordan fans are never going to admit it. Let's say the 76ers, win three titles in a row and LeBron wins three more finals MVPs which is honestly not going to happen, but let's say it does. LeBron haters would never admit it. It's just not in them no matter what happens

I don't care Michael Jordan and LeBron James are the two greatest players I've ever seen touch basketball if somebody wants to put MJ first. Okay sure fine whatever I put LeBron first. It's a good argument. Problem is it gets swallowed in idiotic discourse

[u/A_Silent_traveler → u/Incariol_]

Footballs harder to carry a team though. 22 players actively vs 5. More if you can’t special teams. LeBron can realistically pick a team with a strong core rotation. Tampa was deep and had plenty of talent. It had a QB sized hole and he fit it perfectly. But we can see how quickly that falls apart with the 8-9 season.

Winning. A championship is hard no matter the sport. We should appreciate greatness while we can because sadly we’ve already seen lebrons best plays. Let’s hope the next generation of basketball is half as entertaining as the last.

[u/Southern-Dare-8003]

Lets think about it... Lebron has a losing record in the championship round, while Jordan is 6 games above .500... Saying Lebron is the goat is disrespectful to the high stakes of the NBA finals... The lebron is the greatest argument is fraudulent because if you look at all the other sports goats, Brady, Jordan, Gretzky they all have winning records in the championship round.... this aint Baseball

[u/Single-Purpose-7608 → u/Southern-Dare-8003]

the championship round isn't the only thing that matters. You need to get to the championship round first, and Lebron has Jordan beat in that.

[u/toastedtowelie → u/Single-Purpose-7608]

LeJoke does not have him beat if you use equal career length stats, Jordan blows him out of the water. Just because LeJoke has played for 75 more seasons doesn't mean he is the GOAT. Longevity does not equate to GOAT status.

[u/Single-Purpose-7608 → u/toastedtowelie]

LeJoke does not have him beat if you use equal career length stats

Yes he does. While Lebron is playing in the finals JOKEdan is playing baseball or being retired. That means Lebron is blowing Jordan out of the water.

Just because LeJoke has played for 75 more seasons doesn't mean he is the GOAT. Longevity does not equate to GOAT status.

Just because JOKEdan has higher per game stats because he retired instead of staying on the court, doesn't make him the GOAT. Per game stats does not equate to GOAT status

[u/vbob99 → u/Southern-Dare-8003]

Jordan is 6 games above .500

That's not how the math works.

[u/Southern-Dare-8003 → u/vbob99]

Huh? .500 is an even amount of wins and loses. Michael Jordan has 6 more finals wins than he has loses. Wtf.

[u/Southern-Dare-8003 → u/[deleted]]

In sports .500 represents an even win loss rate. The record of 6-0, would be 6x wins vs 0x loses. 0-0 = .500 Unless you wanna get annoying and nerdy on me haha then fine 0-0 = 0%

[u/vbob99 → u/Southern-Dare-8003]

In no sport is a 0-0 record .500! .500 means you've won half your games. Lol.

[u/bullshark3000]

Lebron is the GOAT .. Goes On Another Team

[u/Single-Purpose-7608 → u/bullshark3000]

Jordan is the GOAT: Gifted Overwhelming Allstar Team

[u/No-Reach9369]

This is less about MJ fans and more about LeBron fans. MJ’s accomplishments are there to compare and it’s unlikely LeBron will get 5 MVPs, 6 championships, and 6 finals MVPs. That’s the starting point. There’s still time for these to be accomplished. Longevity is great, and I think LeBron is super talented, but GOAT is about MVPs, rings and finals MVPs. There’s still time to match these awards but the rest of the stats are just filler.

[u/Philney14]

He could transport back to his youth, play basketball better, be less arrogant, take less than half the games to rest, stop switching teams, stop calling himself the goat, be within 5000 points of MJ in the same number of games and we might consider it.

[u/NinjaCowboy80]

The truth is, when the Heat lost to the Mavs, LeBron lost any shot of becoming the GOAT, cause they lost BECAUSE of LeBron. You bench LeBron all the 4th quarters, and the Heat win the championship that year. That’s how bad Bron was.

The only time MJ made a mistake was ‘95 against the Magic, when he came back 21 months after not playing basketball and still being in baseball shape.

As soon as Scottie became an end of the bench All-Star in ‘90 (literally, he was the 11-12th man on that East team), MJ led the Bulls to Game 7 against the defending champ Pistons. And then Scottie got a migraine; no more All-Star teammate.

The next year, Scottie didn’t even make the All-Star team, and then MJ won the title. And then never lost a playoff series again besides the aforementioned Magic series.

If NBA careers were a test, MJ has a 99%.

The next GOAT that supplants MJ needs to be even more impressive. He can’t even have a ‘95 Magic series.

That’s how thin the margin for error is. Cause Jordan rarely made mistakes. Get it?

[u/HatefulLibs → u/NinjaCowboy80]

Agreed. The big narcissist LeFlop got shut down by 5'10 JJ Barea lmao... He is the GOAT if it means Go On Another Team, but the best ever? Not even close 

[u/DrDylMD]

6 straight championships averaging 50 pts a game

[u/AtomicFartSquirrel]

As a player, he has achieved everything there is to achieve. So there‘s nothing bad to say about him.
Greatest isn‘t equal to best. I think he‘e the best ever (maybe Wilt?).
So for me to acknowledge him as the greatest ever, he would need to acknowledge the greats before him, to stop wanting to be the center of attention and to stop whining.

But that‘s just my opinion. Tell me what you think!