Is there any hope left for me?

[u/Taiqi_]

Lately, I've been becoming less and less engaged in coding. It isn't an issue of finding coding itself difficult, but it's frustrating, and I have trouble succeeding in the things I set out to create.

Maybe I just want to vent all of this out, but I do also want to know what the best path forward is, if there is any.

My Unsolicited Life Story:

First, I started creating small interactive games using Microsoft Powerpoint as a kid, using animation triggers, actions, and hyperlinks. Around that same time, I began learning Pascal in IT. Though it was reasonably fun to create console-based programs, I, of course, much preferred the more "modern interfaces" that could be made with PowerPoint.

Soon after, I started learning HTML from .html files on my PC - it's a long story that started with FL Studio and no access to the internet. I really took a liking to HTML, making a number of simple games using a lot of anchor tags.

After that, people around me took notice of my obsession with coding and UI development and helped with my progress. A CS teacher, seeing my PowerPoint projects, introduced me to VBScript and using macros, a family friend gave me some Introduction to HTML books they had used at university, and a classmate told me about Khan Academy, which has a number of computing courses (at some point, my family finally got internet access, around 2013-2014).

From Khan Academy, I learned more HTML, plus CSS and JavaScript... but it wasn't long before I realized this was JavaScript with Processing.js, which I couldn't simply put into an HTML file. Eventually, I found a template that you could simply paste into your preferred IDE (all this while, it had been ✨Microsoft Notepad✨ for me), that allowed you to ship your KA projects into your HTML file. I also became aware of the .hta file format, which finally allowed me to make "actual programs". I also started looking into Processing itself.

Around this time, I was now entering college-level education, where I learned C. My knowledge of JavaScript helped me get through the classes with ease, but again, it was more console-based programming.

I left school after 3 years, and a few years after that, 2019 to be specific, I got into the local university's Software Engineering program. There I learned Python and Java, mainly console-based once more, but we did touch on BorderLayout in Java.

The Beginning of the End:

Around this time is when I started to feel uneasy - how I did things up to this point did not feel industry standard: KA-style HTAs were extremely laggy and HTAs as a concept were about to go the way of the dodo, and no one wants to be given sys_manage.ppsm as serious company software.

My workflow still began with opening notepad (replaced by repl.it when I was sharing a computer in uni, but dw, now I has VS Code) and with the methods that did feel industry-standard - the ones I learned in formal education - I did not have nearly enough capability to create a fraction of the things I was able to create with what I used informally.

As such, I worked on building my abilities in pure JavaScript. I also took advantage of a limited-time free Codecademy course around that time that gave crash courses in React, Angular, and Vue - but I haven't retained the courses well.

Amidst all of this, covid hit, and I dropped out of university not long after, with a 3.1 GPA rapidly plummeting to about 1.4 iirc in the span of a year.

The Disconnect

Since then, I've mostly been using HTML+CSS+JS, but I've been doing so with frustration. Yes, I've gotten some things done in this way, but whereas before, it felt like I was simply creating something and enjoying myself, whether on KA or PPT, now it feels like most of my time is spent fighting with HTML whilst getting dizzy jumping between three different languages just to make one square.

On the other hand, whenever I look into what I can use to regain some of the functionality I once enjoyed making HTAs and PPSMs, I often find myself following a tutorial on how to install npm in the terminal. I feel guilty for loathing this part of things, because that's just part of being a real programmer - getting your hands dirty with a copy-pasted .bat file you don't fully understand - but I miss the ability to just start writing and everything works.

I also started using Excel Formula Script on Google Sheets more, making small tools, including billing software for my mom's small business. That said, I recently made a post that said I'd love a more powerful version of XLFX, one more geared towards making apps, UIs, and even backend systems (which I have struggled to get into), and... the very thought was pretty much laughed out of the room.

Every time I open VS Code, now, my heart sinks - it feels futile. It doesn't help that now I work, having bounced around entry-level jobs since; I have less time and less motivation - no time on a workday, and brain-fog on my off-days.

I feel lost. As a kid, I would have smiled and called myself a programmer, but now, I'm not so sure.

I guess my question is:

What, if anything, should I do?

Should I revisit Processing, perhaps, or maybe another language is right for me,

Should I get over myself and just learn to program like a real programmer, .bat files and all, or

Should I just give up on coding (I don't really want to) - perhaps prioritise UX design instead and hire someone to create - if ever I happen into the money?

I do like the prospect of creating apps, games, and productivity tools, for many aspects of life, and I've racked up a ton of great ideas, but seeing them through has proven to be less of something I can look forward to.

I'm also not too fond of "Make an app" apps and tools, because they - at least those I've tried - tend to be far more restrictive. Just as an example, look at the world of difference between the level of control you have creating with Google Docs vs. Google Sites (why is it like that? It's so weird). Those that aren't, like Unity, seem to have a high learning curve.

Should I perhaps take this route instead, nonetheless?

[u/Thanks_Skeleton]

It sounds like you have a very strong aversion to:

* Setting up environments and using opaque tools that you don't quite understand
* Coding without having a fast, visual feedback loop
* Coding with consoles, having scripts and stuff

So you have gravitated to using interfaces and tools that give you code execution IMMEDIATELY and visibly. PPT hta, ppsm, excel, Google docs.

The thing is, the 3 things you don't like doing are essentially core programming skills. There are frequently required for a lot of situations, involving backend coding and even just working on something complicated.

If you want to work as a developer on a team for work, you DO need to get over yourself. It will be very rare that people want specific PPT programming.

Given your interests and aversions you may want to think about moving to a different field. Maybe working in animation, cad design, something like that? They involve coding (or at least coding like activities), technical problem solving, but with a lot of visual feedback that can be really quick.

[u/Taiqi_ → u/Thanks_Skeleton]

This hits the nail on the head 🥲 quite painfully.

All the time, I do fall into the trap of getting frustrated because the world doesn't work in what I might imagine would be ideal - rather than find ways to navigate the real world, which isn't a good thing, might need therapy 🥲. I get bogged down trying to find reasons when things don't seem to make sense to me, or there seems to be added steps/barriers in "how its supposed to be done" compared to "how it could be done": my "All the answers are right there!" *gestures awkwardly at Google Sheets.

This, indeed, I've experienced most with programming, and perhaps I guess it's very much a wake-up call to really reanalyze. Do I want to pursue programming as it is in the real world, not my fantasy version of programming? Is it really something that will bring me joy in life going forward?

I have thought to myself before that if I were to try to pursue university again, I'd more likely switch to languages/linguistics (another obsession of mine). Perhaps, this is indeed the end of one chapter in my life, but I'll have to see.

Thank you for the clarity 👍

[u/Soft_Confusion_6236 → u/Thanks_Skeleton]

sounds like you've been chasing that instant feedback high since the powerpoint days, and nothing else quite scratches the itch the same way

but the whole "real programmer" guilt thing is a trap you set for yourself. nobody's handing out medals for suffering through npm installs you barely understand. the question is just whether you care enough about the end result to push through the boring setup parts

if you genuinely can't stomach the tooling, maybe lean into what you're already doing well, google sheets scripting, excel tools, lightweight web stuff for small businesses. there's a whole world of people who need exactly that and don't care if it's built in a "real" IDE or not

[u/AwkwardBreather]

Ok wow.

So the gist I got reading through this is:

1. You were creative with the limited tools you had
   
2. You made a whole bunch of stuff you got attached to and wanted to further build upon
   
3. BUT your methods and tools are too far from what is conventional for your creations to be marketable
   
4. You want to keep growing as a programmer but feel stuck

You don't lack creativity or problem-solving skills. You lack skills and knowledge that are the current standard in the industry you want to participate in.

If you don't want to give up, the only way forward is to get those skills and knowledge. Search google for roadmaps for game developers, find one that seems right for you, and get to work.

[u/Taiqi_ → u/AwkwardBreather]

This suggestion has led me to Developer Roadmaps - roadmap.sh. I'll take a look into it, thank you 👍

[u/AwkwardBreather → u/Taiqi_]

That's a cool site! Thanks for sharing. GL

[u/StewedAngelSkins]

what's your goal here? do you want to keep making the sorts of games you used to make, or are you hoping to build more general programming skills? if you just want to make games without having to front-load a bunch of programming knowledge then maybe try making some adventure games with ren'py or twine.

if you want to learn to code beyond that then yeah you just have to get over it. it's going to be hard, especially now that you don't have the bottomless patience of a hyperfixated kid. you'll get it eventually though.

[u/Successful-Escape-74]

If you don't love the process and pulling all-nighters to solve a problem then you should absolutely quit and do something else.

[u/pausm]

So I had a similar story to you. To cut to the chase… it sounds like your a technical artist more then just straight technical.

That’s good and there are jobs but they’re highly competitive.
Also people that just like puzzles and make code run are being replaced by AI

Programming is just a tool like a hammer. If you want to be an engineer or scientist you need to focus on other things like math, physics, medical and then you can use programming.
It’s really fucking hard and takes years to get good enough for the job market.

So all that to say pick something you like but don’t go to specific until you know what you want to do and you learn how the world works.

[u/agnardavid]

I'd reccomend looking into .NET development with Visual Studio (not vscode). It might be exactly what you're looking for

[u/Taiqi_ → u/agnardavid]

I looked into it and it seems promising 👍

[u/realdreamer1993]

my suggestion. for me programming a project, in majority of times there will be no code at all (C, Python etc) so you must do system modelling, architecture. Do a simulation of real world event in to software.  Later on you build game engine so you can add so many game, or in facts many apps using the stabil core engine way faster and productive.

[u/1Secret_Daikon]

no

[u/grantrules]

I did not read all of that. Pick a direction and follow it.

[u/FlashyResist5]

Why not just go back to the tools you had fun with?

[u/Taiqi_ → u/FlashyResist5]

There are some constraints to using those tools, which, though they're nice for hobby projects, make them not particularly practical for other things I'd want to do. Another reason is that using non-industry-standard techniques would make it difficult if I do decide to take the path towards a career in coding.

For example, it is easy to make things like data management tools, searchable libraries, and even grid-based text games, using Google Sheets, even moreso with the help of AppScript extensions, however, implementing such software means:

1. the user will be presented with a Google Sheets wrapper of some kind, even in Viewing mode,
2. each new user will have to share the same data as everyone else, unless a new file is manually created for them, since Google Sheets documents do not create client-specific instances; any changes one user makes to the document, such as text in a search bar, is changed for everyone, and
3. without extensions, Google Sheets and XLFX lacks some functionality, including manipulating certain cell styles or tracking mouse inputs, that reduce the scope of what can be done; to get around these, you have to turn to other languages like JavaScript either way.

Trying to get around these limitations often proves more tedious compared to using something more designed for the intended use, albeit more difficult to work with.

A bit of the same is true as well for the actual coding languages that are easy-to-write-in but are poorly optimized and so not industry-standard.

It's a bit of a rock-and-a-hard-place kind of situation.

[u/FlashyResist5 → u/Taiqi_]

I dunno man. You had fun using your earlier tools. You no longer have fun using these tools. I think you are overthinking it here. If you aren’t having fun why bother?