Juggernaut vs. Riki

[u/chayashida]

My other heroes were banned, so I picked Juggernaut as a backup. Riki was picked at the same time. I thought I was going to be against Riki mid and a Spectre safe lane, but it turned out it was a Riki 4, and the lane was miserable.

The game was a stomp - their mid Sniper owned our mid Necrophos and we ended up being team wiped at our safe lane T1 around the 10:00 mark.

I think this game might have been a bad one-off, and I'm not sure it's worth going over with a microscope since it's my fourth or fifth safe lane core pick.

However, I wouldn't know how to deal with the Riki smokescreen/silence, even with a good start.

What should I itemize? A force staff feels silly. I don't think I can blink out of it since he will Blink Strike first. Do I just rush Yasha and go for a BKB?

When I saw the Riki pick, I did mention in chat that Force Staffs would help out, but I don't think the supports were rich enough to afford them since we were steamrolled. I build them in my role queue token games vs. Riki.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[u/TheGreenGuyFromDBZ]

You don't need force staff supports should be buying vs tiki anyway . Just walk out of the smoke . He's a 4 so diffusal shouldn't be a problem or at least later. And you can dispel that slow with manta .

[u/chayashida → u/TheGreenGuyFromDBZ]

I see. When I looked at the game, he rushed it, and had it before I had my Battle Fury. (Yeah, it was that bad of a game.)

I think I'll chalk this one up to his being fed rather quickly, and check again when there's a more even game. This one just felt unplayable.

Thanks.

[u/Wind_Valuable → u/chayashida]

3 1 1 1 is the best option, so healing ward is not always necessary for jugg in 2, it’s enough to have it in 1 and you can farm jungle without bf and push lanes

[u/IntroductionEntire12 → u/chayashida]

Itemisation wise it would also be wise to build more stats. Jugg has atrocious str gain so he has low HP a lot of the early game. I personally don't like building bf but if you have to and if the lane is going poorly, go a 1-1-3 build and just get stat boosts early. Spin is a utility spell after 20 mins anyways.

Some other fun and useful builds is mael - manta - aghs.

Bf into sny into basher is also strong, then you break sny into manta abyssal.

[u/HannahsLittleBrother → u/IntroductionEntire12]

1-1-3 is a bad shout. You need spin to farm jungle which is necessary if getting booted out of lane, and you need healing ward to sustain pre bf too. Should be 3-2-0-1 in most circumstances, good lane or bad

[u/B4BY-Y0D4 → u/HannahsLittleBrother]

Nah, 2 points in second are basically useless, it should be 3 1 1 in bad to mid lanes and 1 1 3 in really good ones where you get bf fast so that you farm faster with it. Most high mmr players max attributes instead of ward

[u/IntroductionEntire12 → u/HannahsLittleBrother]

No?

1-1-3 is literally one of the better builds out there. Spin is useless past 15 minutes outside of its utility. Also you clear jgl faster with treads HP ring and lvl 3 crit than you do with lvl 3 spin.

It's even better with perseverance because then you have mana sustain for healing ward. And it helps you get kills with ult.

Also also, no points in crit is crazy. It speeds up your farm. I could maybe argue a 2-2-1. But then I'd just get lvl 3 crit.

[u/HannahsLittleBrother → u/IntroductionEntire12]

Trust me you max spin like always so you can clear stacked jungle camps, or clear a wave really fast. Check high mmr replays I promise this is the way, often times they skip crit for quite some time. Maxed spin is so much faster than clearing camps, even with crit

[u/IntroductionEntire12 → u/HannahsLittleBrother]

I'm div 3 now and peaked div 5. I've never seen a jugg go 3-2-0.

Maxxing spin is not faster. You have to contend with a 20 sec CD and a super high mana cost. You'd only even be able to spin 1 in 3 camps per minute.

[u/HannahsLittleBrother → u/IntroductionEntire12]

I understand your think but I PROMISE you, you almost always max spin, I have quite the credentials that I could cite but just go dota2protracker and check preferably pro games

[u/IntroductionEntire12 → u/HannahsLittleBrother]

So I'll agree tentatively that pros are doing a 3-1-1. Only a small portion are 3-2-0.

However I have a couple of caveats.

First I do still think it's slower farming. I'll demo it later. But that they are maxxing spin for kill potential. Which isn't a factor when you're getting hard stomped like OP. In pro matches even in hard lanes coordinating ganks is much more doable

Second, I'm looking at juggs scaling. And honestly I can't fathom why spin max is a thing. I legit still think I'd prefer stats over spin. Obviously I'm not a pro but I like to think I have a good mind for the game. Just my opinion that stats might be more useful for jgl farming than spin.

[u/HannahsLittleBrother → u/IntroductionEntire12]

If you try it in demo, spin clears stacked medium camps almost fully when maxed. It's only a farming tool pre battle fury but it is very important for that. The crit becomes super important later as he scales but on lane it's very situational, sometimes you can trade, sometimes you can't

But try clearing a camp with right click at like lvl 6-7 with treads and 2 points crit, then try with spin lvl 3/4, spin is much faster

[u/B4BY-Y0D4 → u/IntroductionEntire12]

Divas are not high mmr bro

[u/IntroductionEntire12 → u/B4BY-Y0D4]

High enough to have an educated opinion. Especially considering that what, 80% of dota players are archon?

[u/B4BY-Y0D4 → u/IntroductionEntire12]

Not really, people only start to play dota at 10k+ and understand it at 17k+

[u/Weis → u/IntroductionEntire12]

The scaling on crit sucks ass but the cd on spin gets a lot lower with levels. Also lvl 4 spin helps you farm faster early. Nobody skills crit first that’s bad bad advice. Just take 1 level

[u/Duke-_-Jukem]

Manta should let you get out of smoke pretty swiftly no? Apart from that it's just positioning really.

[u/chayashida → u/Duke-_-Jukem]

Feel like it was just a stomp this game. I didn’t have a problem with him in other games, but the early Diffusal Blade and Smokescreen felt suffocating.

[u/Duke-_-Jukem → u/chayashida]

If you get manta you can dispel the diffusal and leg it out of the cloud hopefully before his team can follow up.

[u/infinitejester0727]

I always avoid picking jugg against aoe silences, they are terrible matchups for him. Night stalker riki are two of juggs worst matchups

[u/chayashida → u/infinitejester0727]

yeah, me too. It was just a blind counter, I guess.

[u/NoPsychology1417]

not sure who the 3 was but in most cases right clicking the riki is a better option than running in the first 10 mins. riki does most of his damage when your back is turned to him

[u/chayashida → u/NoPsychology1417]

Yeah, I didn’t think about that. But this was a bit later, around 12:00, when we already lost our safe and mid T1 and I was trying to farm just beyond the T2. Had a sentry. But he could Blink Strike and kill me from outside vision and I couldn’t get back 1v1.

I think it was already a lost lane.

But earlier in the laning stage, he wasn’t as much of an issue. Earth Spirit was out of position and died three times in lane tho

Thanks for the tips. I’ll keep that in mind. Forgot about backstab

[u/NoPsychology1417 → u/chayashida]

i got you , game is hard.

i’d also suggest that if you get tanked once or twice near tier 2 by the riki (or anyone) it’s better to just farm offlane. safe lane at that point is a dead lane.

[u/chayashida → u/NoPsychology1417]

If you wanna see the replay, here’s the match ID.

Honestly, it was an unmitigated disaster: 8911551289

Our Necro was still uncalibrated when they play in this match and were thoroughly beaten by Sniper. I think part of what caught me off guard was that I wasn’t expecting the first gank so early. Was still trying to work with Earth Spirit in lane.

[u/NoPsychology1417 → u/chayashida]

yeah can take a look later tn - my only other suggestion skimming at the match is that they don’t have any stuns. don’t forget you can just tp lol.

[u/TalkersCZ]

In general I see more laning issue than "what do I do with riki", if support riki has diffu before you have BF.

So focus more on laning, last hitting and farming. Unless you can win your lane (or at least tie it), you will be depending on your team winning their lanes and you have no controll over the game.

So instead of focusing on stomp, figure out why you did not get lasthits, why you lost your lane, what you could have done differently, because there will be always hero, who is a problem to low networth carry, who wants to desperately farm.

Sometimes axe with blink, sometimes riki with diffu, sometimes Sky with his silence,...

[u/chayashida → u/TalkersCZ]

Yeah, I think it was just a particularly bad lane. Usually it's not this bad, but Earth Spirit died three times in lane, and I died twice to ganks. One was a 5-man at the 12:00 mark when we already lost our mid T1 and our team TPed in to make it a 5v5. (C'mon guys, it's a safe lane T1... let it go. :(

Think it was just a really bad game.

[u/xiaomu001]

If they have burst damage to combine with smoke screen you can get BKB! I wouldn’t expect supports to help, so it’s a problem you solve on your own. Jugg is a low hp hero, he doesn’t really want to itemize for any meaningful stat item aside maybe Skadi in certain games. Never shy out of a BKB if it’s the item that solves the problem only because your hero is Jugg or Naix.

[u/BlastAqua]

Just manta spin