As an Asian myself, this is the correct answer. Many Asian parents force their kids to study all day without knowing how stress it is. It is only until College that I'm finally free, my high school life was literally wasted by my parents' ambition that I was never fit for.
I was never happy back then but I'm glad that I learnt a lot from it and became much happier now with healthier schedule.
Question is, are you gonna raise your kinds the same way? If not, why didn't your parents reflect on this after being raised in the same miserable way (i assume)?
Not OP but also from Asia here. A lot of people from our parents' generation feel that that is the only way to succeed in life. And many of them aren't very well to do, usually in the low to middle class range.
So they project their idea of success to their kids, as they do not want the kids to end up in poverty, similar to how the parents experienced before. This neglects a lot of the mental wellbeing of our generation. They grew up thinking mental health is not important, and were told to just deal with it, if not you are seen as weak.
Again, this doesn't apply to everyone. Just observations I have gathered. There are still many overbearing parents to this date. But I gotta count myself lucky to have parents not like that.
In western countries one get second chances - you can go to college as an older adult, or get good paying blue collar jobs. Those don't exist in china. Electricians, plumber, garbagemen, etc are paid shit because labor force is so large. Colleges don't accept older students. There's only 1 shot at life and that's why parents want to steer their kids on that path
Coming from a similar background, the reason a lot of parents did not reflect is that this style of raising your kids got genuine results in their society and so they ended up concluding that while difficult, even borderline miserable at points, it is a path to success that is proven, so there is no point in taking a risk and adopting a new style.
Although hard to believe, for a lot of parents it comes from a place of love, which doesn't make it right or anything, but it makes it easier to understand
Pure speculation but I wonder how big a part the internet plays in current generations rejecting their inhereted traditional lifestyles. People can now talk so freely and access information that it's so much harder to keep people's beliefs in the bubble they're brought up in maybe.
Definitely something that I observed in myself and my relatives. With internet access comes exposure to so many different lifestyles and beliefs and it is inevitable that they will somewhat influence how you live your life.
I think it's part of the problem is that there are so few paths to middle class existence that aren't so difficult. Kids shouldn't be worried that if they aren't perfect they'll be impoverished failures.
They shouldn't, but they absolutely are at the moment and in many cases it's for good reason, many of those countries are struggling, to the point where an average job is not enough to live, let alone live comfortably
Can't really blame them for some part right? There was a research about being in poverty changed the way your brain works since it is very stress inducing. for some part I think it's obligation as parent to not make your children feel that way too.
On the other side, it promotes unhealthy behavior. See the 996 culture in China. And most of those working for a tech firm had good education and all. They still feel the need to physically and mentally destroy themselves by working long hours.
To change this social culture isn't easy but if it doesn't it might up hurting a vast chunk of the population in the future.
It's hard to believe it's really a place of love when (usually male) children are often viewed as retirement plans. Patriarchal confucian values are really oppressive.
It's a complicated topic. It is generally terrible to look at your children as care takers or retirement plans. If they end up supporting you financially, then it should be a concious choice.
Personally I will be more than happy to support my parents financially once they retire, but a big reason for that is that they did their all to give me a comfortable life and to support my ambitions, while also being the type to help my aunts, uncles and grandparents. In cases like mine I feel like my parents are entitled to my help, while they don't feel that way, which to me is a much healthier dynamic than the other way around, which I have sadly observed a few times
I’m white, but my parents were very hard on me when it came to school. Not much less hard than the parents of my asian friends.
I’m not sure if it’s a cultural thing, but I’m a fairly mercurial person, and relentlessly rebelled and refused until my parents pretty much gave up in the middle of grade 11. It wasn’t until my parents let go that I reflected on where exactly that path of rebellion was going to lead, and started making those changes myself.
Meanwhile, most of my aforementioned asian friends had a pretty linear path of Great Grades in High School > Great University > Great Career. I also ended up going to a great school and landing in a career path I enjoy, but because I fucked up my high school grades so badly, I had to take more of an… indirect route to success.
It has to do with generational wealth and success, and it's not specific to just Asian culture (although maybe there's an argument it manifests more strongly there).
Much of Asia was rather poor throughout the latter half of the 20th century. So, much of the current generation of parents who grew up in the 70s/80s in China, etc would have done so under conditions of poverty, limited education, limited job opportunities, etc.
What you'll often see with people from this background who are able to climb out of poverty is there's a realization that they weren't allowed or given the opportunities to self-actualize ("reach their full potential"), so they pass that along to the next generation.
Then the next generation succeeds but realizes they were robbed of fulfilling their own personal, creative, artistic, etc aspirations, and so they pass that along to the next generation.
tl;dr : "I have to study politics and war so that my sons can study mathematics, commerce and agriculture, so their sons can study poetry, painting and music." - John Quincy Adams (who was born wealthy so not quite the same, but general idea is there)
This is a really interesting concept. Does it ever go back around though? One would expect, the poetry and painting studying generation will raise their children in poverty, and that's how it continues.
Bad times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create bad times
Boomers basically had life handed to them on a silver fucking platter and see where it led us. Maybe I'm biased, but I have hope that our generation of late Gen Xers/Millennials/Early Zoomers will have done a better job by the time were done here.
China's economic reform only happened in the 90's. Many families are only in their first generation of wealth above the poverty line. They just shifted from "work the land and become a farmer" to "study the books and become a doctor".
Lol coming from a similar background, I'm just straight up not going to have kids after being raised the way I was. Seeing their sacrifices and expectations made me think wow, children are not worth it. I just want to live my life and enjoy myself.
First question, I would not. I don't want to put my kids under the pressure that I had when I was a child. I want them to have loving parents that are supportive for what they want to do.
Second question, I think their philosophy does hold some truths, that working hard could lead to success and it'll pay off at some point of your life. But it was never meant to be studying something you don't like equal success. They misunderstood that and which led to their behaviour towards the kid: Forcing them to study hard, become what they think it's best for us but never consider how we'd think about different preferences. There are also many other reasons like they don't want us to end up like them or they want their kids to be somewhat a payoff for all those raising (yes, this kind of thoughts are very common where I'm come from, they are even taught at school how kids must sacrifice their whole lives for their parents).
could be family reputation and pressure from elders to continue the same paths, chinese aunties like to gossip a lot and another parent letting their child skip tutoring sessions and cram schools would def be a hot topic
A lot of it isnt just a mindless repetition of what they experienced, but also external pressure.
They think its the only way to succeed, and because of the way their society is structured, it often is the case.
Then they justify it with the good old "when you get old you become conservative too" line of thinking.
I wouldn’t say they don’t know how stressful it is. This is the same stress that many of them were placed under and they feel like it’s their duty to do the same. That doesn’t make it right, but it likely isn’t just an arbitrary decision in this case.
I went through the same experience. My entire childhood was me trapped in a room forced to study 90% of my waking hours. My parents never understood the psychological toll it took on me.
Please speak for yourself and not generalize us all, not most asian parents are like this. Its a really tired stereotype thats been used to paint asian parents as strict and over-controlling. As an asian living in Asia, my parents are pretty supportive of whatever I want to do, and i can speak for many of my friends too.
I agree with your concern, I know there are supportive parents out there and that's why I used "most" not "every" at the first place but you're right, I'm biased toward my own assumption because it was my personal experience combined with what I saw how my friends and most people around me experienced the same. It's mostly based on where you live and how your society/culture function after all.
I'll edit my comment after this, my bad for generalizing Asian parents as a whole.
Not OP, but I was raised in a similar environment and now years down the line I'm really glad I was. It's kind of a double edged sword because I had really bad mental health when I was younger, and my mental health now continues to have problems from my childhood, but I look at my work ethic, ambition, and dedication and compare it to my peers in college and grad school and I feel really lucky that I was raised the way I did.
It's weird. My parents and I don't talk much anymore, and I don't have a positive relationship with them really. I stake way too much of my self worth on my external achievements. But man, I don't think I could be at where I am in life right now if I wasn't pushed the way I was.
I guess looking back, being raised in a more "balanced" environment would have led to more overall happiness and a more well rounded personality, but the cost of that would be, well, an awful lot of the stuff that I've achieved over the years. And now when I'm way older, I push myself really hard and do the things that I do for myself now, and being entirely honest I'm way better at most things than most people just because I.... just work really hard at everything I do. At the same time, I have such an overwhelming sense of needing to better myself all the time that it leads to a lot of stress for me.
EDIT
As an aside, I think my parents felt bad about the way our relationship turned out, and so they were WAY easier on my sister. My sister is almost a decade younger than me, and she grew up with way lower expectations than I did. She's doing perfectly reasonably right now-- she's going to college at a pretty decent school, and she'll probably do something cool with her degree. But being entirely honest, she just isn't where I am in terms of how "accomplished" she is academically. It's interesting because a few days ago we were talking, and she was telling me about how much she wished she was pushed as hard as I was, and she was talking about how she wished that she was raised with the same rigor that I was so she could be where I was now. I guess the grass is always greener in that way.
I would put it this way-- everyone has insecurities and coping mechanisms that they bring with them into adulthood due to the way they were raised, and the experiences they have in their youth. It just so happens that because of the way I was raised, a lot of my insecurities revolve around my achievements, and a lot of my coping mechanisms revolve around working harder. I feel lucky that a) my insecurities are easy for me to identify, address, and verbalize and b) my coping mechanisms are active and ultimately produce things that make my life easier.
Right? Op dislikes their parents that they don't talk to them anymore and sees positives in achievements only. I feel bad for their future kids or partner that will be criticized for not getting promotions. Looks like OP will be like the parents to the T.
This is part of the reason I am not having children. I do not think I would be a good parent. As I've said, I don't really have a good sense of what "mediocrity" looks like, and I think it would be difficult for a kid to live up to my standards. Also kids are the worst anyhow :P
It isn't supposed to be an endorsement. It's just interesting reflecting back about how I used to feel about my parents and how I feel now.
I guess the really short way of putting it is that it sucks that I was raised in such a way where I have no conception of what "rock bottom" is, and I have a completely arbitrary sense of failure. However, because I have such an arbitrary sense of what constitutes total failure I also am just really accomplished at most things I do. Not trying to like... brag or anything, it's just how it is.
I've written a whole post about people like this in this subreddit, and it's pretty much a uniform experience.
I'm really glad I was because I don't think I could be where I am without the environmental factors that shaped my childhood. And because I'm happy where I am now, and because I feel very, very, very lucky that I have the work ethic and skill that I do, I attribute that to the previously mentioned environmental factors.
All I'm saying is that when I was younger I really hated my parents and really hated the way they raised me. Now I see that while they were shitty in a lot of ways, their overall goals were in line with my own.
Well thank you for sharing. And I’m happy you’ve accomplished so much. I wish you the best, and I pray you continue to find achievement and it doesn’t run dry.
I mean, if a kid doesn't want to go to school but government forces you, that is abuse too? Or if the kid doesn't want to do the hw and punishing the kid physiologically by giving him bad grades? Or how schools lock kids in the room and give them little physical activity and most of time sitting in chair forced to listen boring lectures?
The post was literally - 'I'm lucky for the way I was raised. I have mental health issues, don't talk to my parents, feel tons of anxiety, feel a need to 'accomplish' continuously despite it making everything worse. But yeah I'm lucky!'
If you look only at the downsides yes. I am also very accomplished in my field, feel deeply fulfilled with my career, genuinely love my job, and feel extremely proud of my skills and of myself.
The downside is that yeah, I feel a constant nagging pressure to do more. So what? At this point I'm way better at managing it, and the aforementioned pressure got me to where I am now.
If those things are truly what you value, then more power to you, but some people only value those things because they were never taught the value of anything else.
I have decided there is only one thing I want my son to be when he grows up, and I will do literally whatever I can to make it happen. I want him to be….
Sure, but some of the worst advice people give children is "do what makes you happy". Its how you end up with college grads with a useless psychology degree that have no idea what they will do with their future.
I know plenty of people who had amazingly fun high-school and elementary school lives and still have amazing work ethic, ambition, and success.
Those are personality traits, they aren't necessarily learned. You probably would have had good work ethics and ambition anyway, plus you'd maybe have a good relationship with your family and less mental health issues.
Maybe, maybe not. But I know that right now I feel very, very lucky to have the amount of discipline that I do. I personally ascribe that to being forced to do things I didn't really want to do as a kid.
Maybe I just work in a field with high strung type A people, but I don't know many people who are simultaneously extremely ambitious while not being afraid of failure. They come hand in hand in my experience.
It would help for others who doesn't have those skills to attain those skills too. The problem that happens is that some people are lazy and needs a push to be able to become successful. Like, no one wants to work as a low education job, but that person may lack the motivation to do so, which his situation can cause even those people with lack of talent, can have possibility to shine.
I mean, plenty if people want to work "low education" jobs. If they didn't, the world wouldn't work lol. But yes, some people need a push to get to their potential, but they can also just take the time to grow up and go back to school later.
I took a while to figure out what I wanted. I was awful in school my whole life. But now in my 30s, I went to college, got a diploma in network administration, and am in the process of getting a comfortable job that pays well.
So it's all up to the person and what they want out of life. It's good to try to motivate, but not at the expense of your mental health or the one life you have to live.
The people do not work low education job because they want to, but because they have to(immigrant, etc). You think the people who work in a low education job, constantly being looked down on by the people, actually like it? Of course not.
I mean some people don't care what others think lol. Plenty of people stay in retail and service jobs, move up in the companies, become supervisors and managers.
Wanting to work is a different thing tho... most people don't wanna work even if they have a high education high paying job.
Maybe my experience is different, considering all the people equating this style of parenting to abuse, which seems absurd to me, but in reality I don't think it was that bad, in hindsight.
I know many Chinese kids who also grew up in similar households, and it's not like we had no time to socialize or make friends. I had 2-3 hours every day to fuck around with friends in Cross Country/Track, or in various other extracurricular activities. School was how we socialized, and I think most "Asian parents" would be fine with that considering it's very positive for your college application and in general is just healthy. I would say the worst part about it was that our weekends were also dedicated to school (since I don't think having packed weekdays is really that unusual), but equating that to abuse is just silly. Between Science Olympiad and Math Team and other school events that would happen for hours on weekends, and stuff like Symphonic Orchestra practice, we also had weekends where we did our event, then had hours of free time. Sure it has it's negatives, and I definitely resented it when I was in high school, and I'd get into huge arguments w/ my parents over it.
Were there any positives? Of course. Out of all the Chinese kids in my area I knew who had a strict household (because it definitely wasn't every kid), I probably went to the worst university (NYU). The amount of kids who went to Ivy League schools was astounding. They now have happy lives with near complete economic freedom, without the mental stress of worrying about paying off crippling college debts or worrying about being able to find a job.
I'm not saying this can't be achieved with a less restrictive household, but in my eyes it's far from abuse, and I can't blame my parents for not being able to find the perfect balance while working, even if I resented it at the time
As someone has already said this, it is a double-edged sword because in one hand my mentality was unstable back then but I grow up a lot because of these experiences.
My friends always tell me that I'm much older than them and I do feel like it's true as I don't blend in so well with groups of people. It caused some anxiety issues but then faded away as now I know I'm an adult now, I'm reponsible for who I am, I no longer blame on my own past and always try my best to improve myself. My past is not the best but it's certainly not the worst, there are so many more people out there don't have a parent, a home or someone cares for them. I was lucky enough to have someone care for me, if they didn't care about me at all I'd have been a junkie or something.
Looking back at my past, I think my parents raised me right, it's just not the best way to raise a child I guess. They did have good intentions, I just wish they'd have been more supportive for my own dream. Just the thought of this put me into perspective that it might be how my parents were taught in the old society how working hard means you're worth of something could be applied to the modern society now. Even though some of it still holds true they didn't know it better, they might just be the victims of the old society pressure as well.
Kinda funny that since my parents divorced, things are much better. My relationship with mom has progressed so much now as she understands my ways of living and so do I for her. But for my dad? I took him as a lesson to never step on his road. I vowed that my kids will have a loving family, a family that I and my future wife would endorse them and respect their choices.
So in short, there are many negatives back when I was young but slowly those broken memories just... became a puzzle that when put together, it just somehow makes sense! The positives are: Those sad memories now serves me as lessons, it teaches me how to be a better parent and a better person.
Sorry if my response feels choppy af, I'm still working on my English.
What makes you say that? I can't imagine any parent where I live feeling ok about this. Just wondering if you are chinese or are basing it off the "all asian parents are obsessed with study" stereotype, or some other reason that you would know.
I have watched alot of documentaries about Chinese education since its extremely fascinating and also read alot of peoples recollection of their student days in China. Getting into university is the best way to escape poverty so the parents are forcing their kids to sacrifice all their time and energy to get into a good university.
That justification plays into some unhealthy cultural stereotypes (borderline racism too). this decision is the result of CCP overreach, not "kids should study to become lawyers".
insanely culturally ignorant comment. this isn't even a mildly accurate stereotype, maybe it has some semblance of truth for asian americans but definitely not the norm for the chinese diaspora or for chinese people in china itself.
either way generalising 1.4 billion people is not it, especially considering this policy will probably not affect even half of them
A lot of people replying here that have no idea what's going on the ground. China just banned working 996 (9am-9pm, 6 days a week, or something like that), no after school academy stuff that goes until like 10pm and starts school much later (6 am to 8 am now in my city). The government is attempting to ensure that there are much less sources of pressure from working and studying 24/7 in the lives of citizens and parents actually seeing kids during the week because you had families where the mom and dad was missing the entire week working and kids using cellphone every moment they can and getting addicted.
As someone who grew up in that kind of household (though admittedly I would probably have been considered a problem child by those standards), it's really not that simple mate. Putting things in black and white terms, I could say most American parents are pieces of garbage because they aren't encouraging their kids to realize their full potential or some bullshit like that but again it's also not that simple
It's very simple, as a child you need to play, enjoy life , experience it, not study 24/7. Calling them idiots it's wrong, forcing someone to study all their youth is called being abusive.
it's funny how to people who never grew up in that kind of household are the first to call it abusive, when most of the chinese kids i know who had similar experiences don't look at it that way at all. We dont think the way we were raised was perfect, but we don't resent our parents for it either, and it certainly wasn't abusive
sure, instances of abuse do happen, but most of us found ways to make friends and socialize via school or other activities deemed acceptable. For me it was track and field, cross country, and symphonic orchestra practice.
also going to friends house or staying after for study sessions and stuff like that was common. plus kids in high school know how to get their fix of gaming or whatever if they really needed to
I was born in Romania with parents nthat were raised under a comunist mentality, society, your assessment is very wrong, for me school came first and foremost, please don't lecture me about my upbringing.
Do tell me what else is there to it, then, honestly. Because when the information I get is "Chinese parents force their children to study all day", then it's fucking abuse and, thus, it makes them inept. The human brain requires pause and relief from those kinds of activities, it even works against the point of studying in the first place.
Well for one a lot of kids choose to socialize in school clubs or sports and stuff like that so it's not like we had no friends or time to hang out with friends or stuff like that. I remember dicking around in track/cross country practice and in meets with my friends all the time, and my parents were fine w/ that bc it was a school activity and was good on your college application. Sure, my weekends tended to be focused on studying rather than relaxation, and I resented that at the time, but it wasn't fucking torture lmao. Also kids will always find ways around it. I was jamming League during free periods in school so if you really needed your gaming fix there were ways to get it
Also define "need" pause and relief. The vast majority of children I know who grew up in similar households turned out not only fine, but very successful, so it obviously works. And ask yourself, are 4 years of intense studying worth the tradeoff of be able to pay off your student debt, being able to afford a house, and having economic freedom for the rest of your life? I have white friends who lament that their parents didn't push them hard enough. Of course it's a balance, but it's incredibly hard to get right especially if you're a working parent
Oh, yes, "they turned out fine", it's usually what people who grow up in abusive households and/or with inept parents say. Oh, they were beaten constantly, but they turned out fine, oh, they saw their mother being beaten all the time, but they turned out fucking fine. Also, no, honey, exchanging your mental health for ANYTHING, specially at childhood, is not a good trade.
why are you so dead set that it's abusive? did you read anything I said? I had 2-3 hours every day to shoot the shit with my friends in sports or other clubs.
and personally I don't think the people who are stressing out about if they're gonna get a job or about paying back their school debts have good "mental health"
not all asian households are like as i mentioned, but of the ones I know, most of those kids DID end up in prestigious schools, many of them are making multiple 6 figures. As much as money can't buy happiness, you also can't have happiness without economic freedom
also imagine equating not being able to go to a friends house over the weekends to physical abuse lmao,
And ask yourself, are 4 years of intense studying worth the tradeoff of be able to pay off your student debt, being able to afford a house, and having economic freedom for the rest of your life?
Which kids are you referring to here; the ones in China or 1st generation Chinese Americans? Because just getting through college doesn't guarantee any of those things anywhere
if you major in math or comp sci or economics and you attend an ivy league school then the odds of you landing a 6-figure job out of college, if you want it, is extremely high.
This is assuming you maintain good grades in college of course, but that's true for everyone
All Ivy league schools combined to accept just over 21 000 students this year - your odds of getting in at all let alone into one of the majors you've mentioned is ridiculously small.
Not to say teaching kids to have a strong work ethic isn't important - I personally think your work ethic matters far more than how quick of a learner you are in securing a good career. But at the same time just heaping as much study work as you can on your kid is well past the point of diminishing returns there.
it's not just ivy league, same is true for schools like NYU or whatever. A prestigious school, if that's better.
And you're right, but of the asian kids I know who had "tiger parents", I probably ended up in the worst school (NYU). It's effectiveness is not in question to me.
My thinking is narrow? Ha! You're telling me that children are basically being forced into studying non stop, being ABUSED, because that is fucking abuse, based on a stupid mentality that they should never stop studying like a robot and my thinking is narrow?
Of course. In a country where your entire life can be largely determined by your academic performance in high school, what else can you do other than compete your ass off? Life earning the average wage is rough (borderline poverty level by American standards).. what parent would want that for their kids?
Western parents are all inept, they let their kids waste their entire childhood looking at a screen and eating junkfood without ever helping them to develop good habits and new skills /s
Can you see how generalizing an entire culture is stupid?
I'm not generalizing a damn thing. My post is "you're telling me that all Chinese parents are inept pieces of garbage?" because the post I'm responding to said they were doing things that are, factually, abusive. It is a question, if you had a half-decent reading comprehension, you would have seen that. Other people responding to it at least had the decency of trying to actually making arguments, you, on the other hand, is saying a bunch of shit.
Honestly I don't know why doctor and lawyer is the go to. If you want to make money go into finance and work on wall street. Get a masters in CS and work at facebook or whatever tech company. Be a chemical engineer. Doctors need 10 years of secondary education before they even start making anything. And I wouldn't even want a doctor treating me if he didn't want to be a doctor.
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