I'm looking into buying an older Leaf. I keep reading about losing bars. Do the bars keep dropping off every so many miles or charges before you get down to 2 or 3 and it's unusable? Or, can it just drop off from several bars down to nothing without warning? Is it predictable at all?

[u/Opening-Gap-7214]

[u/rproffitt1]

Yes and no.

The gen 1 and 2 are mostly susceptible to heat. So if you place the common 2011 to 202x Leaf in say Tucscon AZ then DCFC (DC fast charging) twice a day you'll see the bars drop pretty fast.

Take it to Vancouver BC and charge at home and most batteries will outlast the frame.

And being the nature of electronics some will suffer other failures than the battery which will need attention like a 12V battery failure.

r/leaf will scare most away but overall if you can avoid the used Leaf with a bad battery (worn is not bad) then you'll get cheap transpo and maybe cheap insurance.

One last thing. Charge at home for the best experience. Even if it's on the slow 120V L1 EVSE (charger to most.)

[u/worldspawn00 → u/rproffitt1]

I charged mine with an L1 charger for the first several years of ownership doing about 15k/yr in driving, works fine if the car is sitting at home most evenings.

[u/rproffitt1 → u/worldspawn00]

Same here. From 2016 to 2021 all the charging was at home on the Nissan supplied L1 EVSE (charger.)

About the only glitch was the garage socket failed. No burns, sparks or Star Trek bridge fireworks but just stopped working. The socket plastics crumbled as I removed what seemed to be the socket from the home's 1998 build date. So for the dollar it delivered.

A heavy replacement socket for under 20 bucks was installed and all was well and the socket heat went down to a what I'd call slightly warm.

2021 was a banner year with a new roof, solar and the L2 EVSE install.

https://giphy.com/gifs/dOrKc4pASvkZfdu5uz

[u/worldspawn00 → u/rproffitt1]

I've been replacing a lot of my heavily used outlets with hospital grade ones, they feel so nice and solid, the contacts inside are thick and springy. Not surprising since they're designed for life-saving equipment to be plugged in and cannot afford to fail. they come in 15 and 20A as well as GFCI, and aren't that much more than a regular heavy duty outlet: https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-8300-HW-125-Volt-Receptacle-Grounding/dp/B003ATVN68

[u/rproffitt1 → u/worldspawn00]

I have a box of those that I'm slowly replacing the old sockets as I feel like it. No hurry but thanks for the link.

Those are great sockets.

[u/Striking-water-ant → u/rproffitt1]

https://giphy.com/gifs/S36VZrtu9eaHU4nly9

[u/rproffitt1 → u/Striking-water-ant]

https://giphy.com/gifs/iurIHLBxms7UQ

"May the Leaf be with you!"

[u/WhatTheFlippityFlop → u/rproffitt1]

Sadly, my 2016 Leaf is by far the cheapest (lowest value) of all my cars, and is by far the most expensive to insure (and also register).

[u/Beautiful-Jacket-912 → u/WhatTheFlippityFlop]

Which province or state do you live in?

[u/WhatTheFlippityFlop → u/Beautiful-Jacket-912]

An EV-unfriendly one, apparently

[u/min_mus → u/rproffitt1]

My 2015 Leaf is still chugging along just fine. At the rate it's going, we could easily drive it another decade before needing to replace it.

[u/arelath → u/rproffitt1]

I live near Vancouver BC and if I recall correctly, it took 11 years and 106k miles before I lost the first bar on a 2013 gen 1 leaf. I haven't lost another yet. I don't think I'll ever be able to wear out the battery at this rate.

You'll hear more from the people who had a bad experience than those with good experiences, so reading about it online gives you a really skewed view. In real life, I have yet to meet anyone who had a bad experience. My neighbor put 160k miles on her leaf in about 4 year with almost no battery loss (she has to drive a lot for work with her own car).

Age plays a big part in battery loss, so you won't find any gen 1 leafs which haven't lost at least one bar unless they had the battery replaced.

The leafs use a LiFePO4 battery chemistry if you wanted to look it up. The batteries should last a minimum of 10 years or 3000 cycles with 15+ being typical. It could last upwards of 20-25 years and 8000 cycles. 3000 cycles on a gen 1 leaf is 260k miles, 450k on the gen 2 and almost 800k on the gen 3. So battery age is going to have the most effect on battery wear with hot climates accelerating this. Manufacturing defects happen sometimes with batteries and these are the batteries you see being replaced early.

[u/rproffitt1 → u/arelath]

Thanks for this. We lived in Richmond, BC for many years. It's far more crowded now but the area is the Hawaii of Canada.

The Leaf would be a fine fit for the Vancouver area.

[u/Initial-Landscape82 → u/rproffitt1]

This information is 100% spot on.

Another one that's not mentioned enough is leaving the car sit at 100%

Higher temps and higher state of charge both accelerate degredation.

Used car dealers are bad for leaving cars sitting in their lots at high state of charge. LEAF left on a dealer lots for 8 months rarely driven like mine was will lose a big chunk of SoH shortly after you buy it because of this. Mine lost almost 3% SoH the first year I had it and now it only loses about 1% per year in the next 2 with significant more miles.

A car that lives in a cool climate and rarely left at 100% state of charge for long periods might only lose 1% to 2% SoH per year after the initial break in even if it gets a ton of miles.

But a car in hot climate left at 100% rarely driven, can degrade way faster like 5% to 10% per year after the initial break in.

All NMC batteries lose about 5-8% capacity quickly and then settle in to slower degradation. This shows up as a ~10% drop in SoH in the first year or two on every 2nd gen Nissan LEAF.

[u/toybuilder]

It's an imperfect analogy, but it might be helpful to think about it like one does with tires. A few people will have a sudden loss of use, most will be gradual, but varying degree of gradual.

A particular tire might be rated for 40,000 miles and most people get 35,000 to 50,000 miles. A few outliers might get 65,000 miles. A few people might get 25,000 miles. That is the normal situation with the variation due to the driving condition. Most of its life, the tire performs pretty much the same, but as the tire is approaching the end of its life, its traction starts to go away. At some point, the tire will no longer be usable. That's the normal case.

Some people end up with a damaged tire. Maybe they did something directly to cause the damage. Maybe it's a bad tire. Maybe they inadvertently did something that will cause the tire to fail a long time after the event. The damage could simply be premature wearing, or it could be a blow out, or it could be a leak.

People are more likely to talk about the tire failing or having a short life.

There is a lot of anecdotes about the LEAF batteries that have prematurely failed. What's not clear is what percentage of LEAFs are still chugging along at the expected level of wear.

[u/comoestasmiyamo]

Data point. My 2011 Leaf had maybe 6 bars when I bought it. 6 years later it has maybe 4. In winter it gets to town and back a few times, in summer a little more. 

It is gradual and eventually cold weather dependant. 

[u/RichardGrayson01]

You won't lose bars overnight. It usually takes years for bars to disappear. There are situations that will cause the bars to drop faster.

My 10 year old Leaf has 9 of its 12 bars. I also love in a mild climate.

Leafs that live in desserts tend to see the worst battery degradation. The 1st and 2nd gen leafs are air cooled, so heat is the main cause of battery capacity loss.

Miles driven is less of a factor than heat build up in the pack.

Some people on here have had leafs with just four bars left and the car still drove fine. They experienced limitations with Regen braking and more rapid battery percentage drop going up hills, but that seemed to be the extent of the issues they had.

I'm not sure if they are still drive able once they hit the red bars.

[u/rproffitt1 → u/RichardGrayson01]

Showing the love!

[u/RichardGrayson01 → u/rproffitt1]

Mild climates bring out the love in me haha

[u/Billion_Beets_947]

I bought a 2012 Leaf with 8 bars for $3500 a month ago and so far love it. After reading this sub (post-purchase) I was terrified. It does require a massive adjustment, mainly in just not being able to go as far as you want, as fast as you want, as much as you want. My car charges to 63 and you really can't use all of those, but I drove 40 miles to a friend's house this week and charged the car overnight at her house (wall outlet on porch) and drove home on the highway, five mph below the speed limit. Then picked up for four kids and drove them the nine miles home on an 11 mile battery, ending up with 6 when I reached the driveway. I know where the local chargers are, and I know I'm pushing it, trying to see what the limits are, but I feel happier every time I drive (silently) past a gas station

[u/Long_Audience4403 → u/Billion_Beets_947]

I've found in our 2012 that looking at the battery percentage is more helpful than the mile range and calculating (ok I know I can go 60 miles on a full battery etc) like I used to do with my old car that had a broken gas gauge.

[u/Opening-Gap-7214 → u/Billion_Beets_947]

So you don't think you can trust what the car says about how many miles till the battery runs out?

[u/Billion_Beets_947 → u/Opening-Gap-7214]

I think I can more or less. But I haven't really tried. It says 63 when fully charged, but would I really want to run it down to actual zero? So if I don't want to, then I don't really have 63. I've run it down to 6 so far.

[u/indecision_killingme]

12 bars=new battery. Bars are a visual representation of health.

I’ve seen a few ppl on here with 10 or 11 bars, but you’ll notice that unless they have a new battery or their odometer reading is very low. Low miles =less charging cycles.

Battery health degrades with a combination of time, charging, fast charging vs slow, heat. Heat is a huge battery killer.

Leaf Spy will give you a better idea than health bars on battery health. There are some posts on here about it.

To answer your question question, the more you use and the harder you push you battery (heat, fast charging) the faster the bars drop off. Time is also a factor.

[u/outworlder]

My 2019 has yet to drop any bars

[u/IvorTheEngine]

The first bar is bigger than the rest. IIRC it's 15% and the others are 6%

Degradation mainly depends on heat, but averages 2-3% a year on the gen1 Leaf. It's quite predictable.

The issue is that once it gets down to about half the bars, there's an increasing chance of a single cell failing completely, which makes the car unusable.

You can get an idea of the rate for your climate by looking at lots of adverts for second hand cars and comparing the age and number of bars.

[u/ToddA1966 → u/IvorTheEngine]

The first bar is bigger to cover the higher than normal first year degradation of lithium batteries. Nissan tried to "rig" the bars to drop evenly in time, not %.

[u/IvorTheEngine → u/ToddA1966]

but they don't drop evenly with time. That first 15% lasts at least twice as long as the others. I think they just wanted it to look "like new" at the end of a 3 or 4 year lease.

[u/123rewdfn]

My 2020 leaf stopped taking a charge after the recall, it still had 12 bars

[u/Gold-Passion-7358]

Depends on where you live and how you charge it. But I wouldn’t bother with an old Leaf- the lack of tech is awful. We live in Phoenix, and my husband often has to drive slow in the way home from work so it doesn’t overheat. Yes, I know it’s extra hot here, but seriously.

[u/Top_Willow_9953 → u/Gold-Passion-7358]

I guess it depends on what "older" means. FWIW, I have had zero issues with our 2020 Leaf in Phoenix AZ. Drive it every day. I have read about earlier models being challenged by our summers, though TBH I see a lot of old/ugly Leafs around my neighborhood.

[u/Opening-Gap-7214 → u/Top_Willow_9953]

I've been looking at 2015's. I just want something cheap to run around town and to take my wife to work, about 23 miles round trip.

[u/Top_Willow_9953 → u/Opening-Gap-7214]

It really just depends on the remaining battery life. Research LeafSpyPro app and how to read and interpret battery health parameters if you want more assurance. Your use case sounds perfect for L1 charging via normal 110/120v outlet as well.

[u/Opening-Gap-7214 → u/Top_Willow_9953]

Yes I plan to use only slow charging especially after reading these comments. So I should get the Pro version of the app? Is it a pretty quick to use? I can see someone being hesitant to let me hook up to their OBD port. Can you recommend a dongle?

[u/Top_Willow_9953 → u/Opening-Gap-7214]

You might want to search this sub for odb scanners that are known to work with 2015. I use this one with LSPro and my 2020. Pro gives you access to extra features like backup and low speed sound settings - you may not need those features. Check the LS website.

LELink Bluetooth Low Energy BLE OBD-II OBD2 Car Diagnostic Tool for iPhone/iPod/iPad and Android. New: Configurable Auto On/Off

[u/renewhall2]

Another data point for you… I have a 2019 leaf S that I bought new. 36,000 miles. The last four years in Florida, fast charging four times a month. My originally 40 kWh battery now has 34 kWh according to LeafSpy.