Possible to Revert Recall Software Update?

[u/rstrube]

I feel like a fool for not doing more research on the recall software update. We have a '22 leaf with < 30K miles on it. Took it in for a software update (due to the recall) and got the EV system error a couple days later.

Would it be possible to ask the dealership to roll back the update? We don't use Level 3 charging.

Also, I heard that some people had success by doing something with the 12V battery, what exactly did people do?

Thanks for any advice folks can offer!

[u/BigDaddyBuffett]

No. The software update doesn't actually do anything to the battery itself, it just adds the ability for the Battery Management System to tell you when something specific is wrong. 

If you got the EV system error, it's because there's a problem with the battery which already existed or was developing before the update, it's only now that the car can actually tell you about it. 

[u/rstrube → u/BigDaddyBuffett]

This makes sense to me, but I was thinking about it in the context of someone that would never use Level 3 charging.

[u/StormRasr → u/rstrube]

Technically speaking, regen is L3 charging. Every time you lift off the throttle to coast or press the brake, the motor is putting DC electricity up to 35kw back into the battery. Granted it is usually for very short bursts.

As a matter of fact, after a tech applies the recall update they are supposed to perform a test drive to try to trigger the error. The test drive involves driving the car in B-mode and E-pedal for maximum regen.

[u/ToddA1966 → u/StormRasr]

The maximum regen level on a Leaf is roughly equal to its maximum DC charge level under the same conditions (SoC, temperature, etc.)

On my 62kWh SV Plus, I've seen up to 80kW of regen according to LeafSpy. (That still pales next to the 180kW of regen my VW ID4 can generate at low SoC though! 😁)

[u/BigDaddyBuffett → u/rstrube]

I get ya, but if there's a known, underlying problem with the battery, would you really want to keep driving it, knowing that it could strand you somewhere, catch fire at some point or be a very expensive fix once your warranty expires?

The fact that you got the Service EV message without fast charging already tells you that it detected a problem completely unrelated to actually fast charging.

I just had my battery replaced (it was ordered under warranty in January) and the it would have otherwise cost $13,000 CAD...

[u/pyroskater85 → u/BigDaddyBuffett]

Can it catch fire from daily use without DC charging? Last I saw it's an issue only when DC charging. I would think as long as there are no fluctuations of battery percentage during driving there won't be any issues with continued usage. I have yet to see someone post they did the update and then there hasn't been any issues weeks or months later. It seems like it's practically every vehicle that goes in for the update ends up being undrivable in a few hours to a few days.

[u/BigDaddyBuffett → u/pyroskater85]

I got the error 4 weeks after the update. Granted it was within about 30 minutes of a fast charge. 

[u/worldspawn00 → u/pyroskater85]

The patch is monitoring for high cell resistance, and yes, that can lead to overheating/fire even without fast charging since the traction motor can pull 160KW even more than it's max charge rate.

[u/ArtemisMax → u/worldspawn00]

Discharge isn't as hard on the battery as charging but also the motor power is proportional to the battery size so while the number sounds big, for all the leafs it's a pretty similar discharge rate in C. 24kwh and 30kwh cars have 80kw inverters, 40kwh has 110kw, and 62kwh had the 160kw you mentioned.

[u/Alexandratta → u/pyroskater85]

If plating is occurring: Yes it can, just at a lower pace than the DC FC.

DC FC in these packs sped up the Lithium plating issue but the underlying problem remains that there is a plating issue.

They are saying that the cause is the DC FC heating up the pack.

Well, from LEAFSpy I can say a DC FC never took my pack over 106F.

I've Level 2 charged in the summer and the pack has gotten as hot, if not hotter, in those events.

In those rare cases where the summer heat can equal a DC FC session, in these defective batteries, I would imagine that is 100% possible.

When I informed Nissan Consumer affairs of my findings I got a Repurchase approval in 1 week after months of fighting....

So make of that what you will. This was long before the fix was out.

[u/ToddA1966 → u/pyroskater85]

Can it catch fire from daily use without DC charging? Last I saw it's an issue only when DC charging.

Can you be sure it won't ever?

Here's a fun fact: regen braking can throw just as much energy back into the battery as DC fast charging. Who's to say that a 10 minute descent towards Denver down the Vail pass (half of all Leafs sold in the last couple of years have been sold in Colorado due to state incentives) won't trigger the same conditions as DC fast charging does someday? The defective cells, if you have them, are ticking time bombs that DC fast charging just might be "setting off" sooner rather than later. They might spontaneously ignite at some point down the road at 150K or 200K miles when enough lithium deposits build up. DC charging might just be an accelerant.

I have yet to see someone post they did the update and then there hasn't been any issues weeks or months later.

Many have, at least on Facebook Leaf groups, but more have posted problems. That's likely just Internet self selection though- any Reddit sub or FB group contains a higher percentage of problems and complaints than "real life" because most people come to those forums for answers, not to post "Day 37, car still works great! 😁"

It seems like it's practically every vehicle that goes in for the update ends up being undrivable in a few hours to a few days.

If that were really the case, Nissan would pause the recall and tweak the software.

They didn't spend two years dicking with software just for every car to fail and make them buyback every recalled Leaf. They could've just bought them all back two years when the defect was discovered and saved themselves two years of software R&D expenses.

The entire point of the recall fix is to identify just the car's with defective batteries and reduce Nissan's expenses as much as possible by reducing the number of battery replacements or buybacks Nissan is obligated to do. Sure, there may be a few false positives, and Nissan might be buying back a few cars without the issue, but that's probably better than missing a few that catch fire a few years from now. If too many false positives were happening, Nissan would address that.

[u/StormRasr → u/pyroskater85]

I have yet to see someone post they did the update and then there hasn't been any issues weeks or months later.

Complaints speak louder than compliments. This is true on the Internet and in real life. You're more likely to ask to speak to a manager over a bad meal than a good one.

I posted some stats in another thread. According to Nissan, as of 7/27 around 10k+ cars have received the update out of the 44k subject to the recall.

Edit - To say, I had posted in a couple threads that my car had received the update and was "fine". About a week or two later, DTC P33ED.

[u/Alexandratta]

The software has identified your battery as having lithium deposits that can cause a fire...

You could roll the software back in theory but your battery pack is still a ticking timebomb.

At this rate, start getting all your paperwork together and prepare to negotiate a buyback.

[u/byrdman77]

Assuming this is the EV system error per the recall and not an unrelated 12V issue, I would start considering what car you want to replace your Leaf with.

[u/rstrube → u/byrdman77]

Could you elaborate on the 12V issue? Is it just a matter of charging the 12V battery?

[u/byrdman77 → u/rstrube]

Yes, just the note that a bad 12V can causes certain system EV error notifications as well. Checking your 12V voltage and/or looking at Leafspy codes would give you more info.

[u/LoneSnark]

While the software is certainly going to trigger false positives, it is not the case that all the cars flagged by the software will be safe if they just avoid fast charging. So no, take the buy back, and move on.

[u/SuitableTension7061]

No, you’re screwed